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Translating se+infinitive

de Miland, 5 august 2007

Contribuții/Mesaje: 9

Limbă: English

Miland (Arată profil) 5 august 2007, 21:44:29

Reading a well-known short novel by Claude Piron I have come across the following sentence about a new disease:
"Se konsideri la rapidecon de la nuna disvastigxo, la tuta lando estos malsana pli frue ol uzebla vakcino disponeblos."
The question is, how to translate Se konsideri. The context suggests something like 'If one were to consider', so that the phrase might be a contraction.
Page 395 of PMEG (in chapter 27 I-Verboj, section 6 kvazau cxefverboj) does indeed suggest that se+infinitive X-i = se+(oni or other pronoun)+X-u, so that Se konsideri can be expanded Se ni konsideru, and so translated as I suggest.
This point is not in the examples in section 86 of La tuta Esperanto, though it appears as the fourth example in section 20.2.5 of the Detala lernu!-gramatiko.

erinja (Arată profil) 6 august 2007, 01:40:50

This is one of those uses that is correct but not very common.

Not to say that it shouldn't become more common!

I might translate it as "Se oni konsiderus" ("if one would consider") but I think "se ni konsideru" is an equally good alternate rendering.

It is a rare usage, which is why "La tuta Esperanto" probably doesn't include it.

The detailed lernu grammar is essentially an abbreviated form of the PMEG, so those two sources will always agree with one another.

trojo (Arată profil) 9 august 2007, 13:57:24

Miland:Reading a well-known short novel by Claude Piron I have come across the following sentence about a new disease:
"Se konsideri la rapidecon de la nuna disvastigxo, la tuta lando estos malsana pli frue ol uzebla vakcino disponeblos."
The question is, how to translate Se konsideri. The context suggests something like 'If one were to consider', so that the phrase might be a contraction.
If I were translating it into English I would probably render se konsideri as "considering" or "regarding" (So, "considering the speed of the current spread,..."). The construction "if one would consider the speed of the current spread" just seems kind of awkward in English.

Miland (Arată profil) 9 august 2007, 14:53:14

trojo: If I were translating it into English I would probably render se konsideri as "considering" or "regarding"
Yes; I do not know whether se konsideri is a contraction (more comfortable for E-o apologists), or an example of an E-o idiom, which has arise out of popular usage, but is not a logical consequence of the grammar. If anyone knows, please tell us!

lagwagon555 (Arată profil) 10 august 2007, 05:24:36

I dont see what the problem is. I dont know if its just where I was bought up, but saying 'If, to consider...' makes sense. Is this just me?

Miland (Arată profil) 10 august 2007, 08:00:15

lagwagon555:I dont know if its just where I was bought up, but saying 'If, to consider...' makes sense. Is this just me?
That's a very interesting observation, because I don't recall seeing such a phrase in English in print. Does it occur in any film that you know? My question now is, is this an NZ English idiom, or is it an import from a European language? The latter would explain how it got readily taken up by E-o.

lagwagon555 (Arată profil) 10 august 2007, 13:48:24

I doubt I could remeber seeing any films with that in... and what is more strange, is I was bought up in UK for my 'early childhood' (until I was 10). So I have lived in two english speaking countries. And I dont know any other languages (apart from my developing esperanto...), so it cant be from any other languages.

To be honest, I cant even remeber saying it myself. But if a book read "If, to consider la impact of inflation on the world bond market...", I would not think twice about it.

Have I gone completely mad?

mnlg (Arată profil) 10 august 2007, 14:39:06

lagwagon555:"If, to consider la impact of inflation on the world bond market...", I would not think twice about it.
I would. okulumo.gif

lagwagon555 (Arată profil) 11 august 2007, 12:13:25

Hahaha, I need a slap for that one. I was wondering "why did he put 'la' into my sentence?" before I looked up and saw the horrible truth.

Yes, I think I have gone mad

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