lgg:They are actively opposing everything that can give to Esperanto a competitive advantage. They divide the native languages (and speakers thereof) into first and third grades.

What?

erinja:It also has some extreme weirdos. Anyone who tells you differently either hasn't attended any large-ish Esperanto events or is lying.

I've met a few people that could be considered weird, although none as extreme as what you're describing. But maybe I didn't pay enough attention.

It takes some time to meet the truly strange.

I didn't meet the photographs-the-backs-of-cars person, that story was told to me in an exchange of "weirdest Esperantists you've ever met" stories with some other esperantists.

You meet more strange ones when you're in a position of being an organizer of something (so people come to you with questions or problems). Any time when you're sitting at a table doing registrations, or collecting money for something, or promoting something, it makes you a target for someone to come and give you their opinions.

I think that Esperanto attracts a disproportionate number of people who are somewhere on the autism spectrum, so you get some numbers of people who have an intense and narrow interest and who can't read social cues. It creates some interesting situations.

sudanglo:But it pains me to see Esperantists treated alongside the weirdos, fantasists and dreamers who have indulged in other artificial languages (actually language projects).

As opposed to the weirdos, fantasists and dreamers who indulge in Esperanto?

There is not much recognition in Okrent's book that the Esperantists constitute a serious political movement.

Because they don't?

She does not appear to discuss in much detail that the Esperantists would see that the widespread adoption of some national language as the lingua franca imposes an unwarranted burden on a large percentage of the world's population - in short is unfair.

That is a bit funny, I would have thought that should be in there.

For the Esperanto movement to be more widely respected, we must insist on an appropriate recognition of the gulf between us and the language hobbyists, eccentrics and dreamers.

So, for the Esperanto movement to be more widely respected, it must be recognised as its members having nothing to do with the Esperanto movement? Wouldn't that give the impression Esperanto has no speakers, and thus kill off its case?

You know, part of the reason Esperantists are seen as raving loonies by some particularly critical members of society is because we come off looking all righteous and powerful, which has the effect of us looking more like a wannabe banana republic, with them sort of going "Why so serious? It's just language. It's not gonna stop world hunger."

Which, in effect, makes the efforts of those trying to honestly and kindly propagate the language without acting like language-supremicists more or less nullified.

sudanglo:Come on!

To group Esperanto with the conlangs (artificial language projects) is as bad as bracketing together astrology with astrononomy.

One is a language with a long history, a substantial literature and a significant body of speakers, the others are playthings or academic indulgences.

No, taking your comparison there and comparing it to reality would be like bracketing together astrology with astronomy.

And while you might be impressed by Esperanto's long history and literature, I see none of it at my local library, at any of my university libraries, and so frankly, given how much of it is unavailable, it sort of kills of the whole "international language with rich history and literature" tagline if half that rich history and literature isn't available quite so internationally. Within the walls of Esperantujo, it's there, but outside of that, the world simply does not give a flying pineapple.

On the flipside, you mention how other conlangs are like playthings, but man alive, have you seen how fast the Lingua Franca Nova wiki has grown? That is one dedicated bunch of peop's. So does all their work amount to nothing?

Anyway, I see Esperanto as nothing but a plaything and an academic indulgence.

Esperanto is in its own bracket. For instance according to Hungary academy of sciences it’s considered a living language. Which is where I think languages would start transitioning from projects to ... well recognised languages. And as much as I hate religions, it’s like the transition of a cult to an official religion. Both are religions, just ones not officially recognised by the public. So Esperanto is a project in some countries, and language in others. Unfortunately for me in Australia it’s still considered a cult; even in China is more established

For further information from vikipedio:

En Hungario okazas ŝtate rekonitaj ekzamenoj pri Esperanto. Studentoj bezonas por fini siajn studojn, depende de la altlernejo, konfirmon pri lingvokono en unu aŭ du fremdaj lingvoj libere elekteblaj. Eblas elekti ankaŭ Esperanton. Inter 1995 kaj 1999 okazis jare ĉ. 500 tiaj ekzamenoj, ekde 2000 okazis kresko kaj ekde 2002 ĉiujare estas ĉ. 6000 ekzamenoj. La kaŭzo estas malpli la entuziasmo pri la lingvo mem - ĉefe kaŭzas tion, ke Esperanto estas lernebla multe pli rapide ol aliaj lingvoj. Sume ĝis 2007 tiel okazis pli ol 40.000 ekzamenoj. Necesas konscii, ke tio ne signifas same multajn personojn, eble nur 30.000, ĉar la nombro inkluzivas la malsukcesojn kaj sekve la ripetojn. Pli detala teksto el 2005 sur Instruado de Esperanto en Hungario, krome raportoj 1 kaj 2 el 2007.

Basically in Hungary state recognised exams occur in Esperanto. For students to complete their study’s and further their education they need to pass an exam in a foreign language, which can be anyone they choose, including *drum roll* Esperanto. So 1995 and 1999 every year about 500 exams take place, then each year after that it’s been growing. The cause according to the article is not enthusiasm for Esperanto but the fact it’s so easy to learn compared to the other languages – thus allowing students to pass the tests. So as of 2007 40,000 exams have taken place, but only about 30,000 of those are students, the rest are people who retake the test.

So to me this is where Esperanto goes from project to living language, and no other conlang has achieved this thus far, putting Esperanto in its own special bracket. But who knows what the future holds for the others, though personally I think Esperanto was born and flourished in a unique and most likely not reoccurring time in our history, and this is what makes it so special in my heart

erinja:

Comments that denigrate the efforts of others do nothing to further the cause of promoting Esperanto and end up making this community look like the weird ones.

It also has some extreme weirdos. Anyone who tells you differently either hasn't attended any large-ish Esperanto events or is lying.

I agree until that point, that Esperanto could attract people, who someones instantly could put at first look into some nerd-of-something stereotype. Because it could received high offending I will not clarify that in detail. But mostly they are much more less nerdish as others. I have some feebleness to implement such folks. They often are very nice-minded folks. Laŭ mi, everybody is welcome excluding that folks who try to use Esperanto community and others to get served their egocentrism. Often they don't seem to be aware how much they poison the atmosphere. Even if they would be aware of that, they wouldn't care of. That folks are really annoying. They comment everything, they can not accept contrary opinion same valued like their owns and they tell everybody how the world works and what is the funny-bunny truth (whose truth?). Only batteling the whole time. Pah! But that probably very old communication trouble also Esperanto language can not solve. Its an matter how someones were brought up (breeding). Its non-language related.

by learning it (Esperanto) you are supporting the idea of IALs

Not exactly.

You are certainly supporting the idea that a national language is not the most appropriate choice as a world lingua franca.

But you are not lending your support to Ido or Klingon or any of the other 900 conlang ideas for a language.

The issue here is not so much one of denigration as distinction.

I object to the idea of lumping Esperanto with the conlangs.

Perhaps one of the conlangs could in a 100 years time deserve the label language. It seems improbable but who knows.

When one of them has a dictionary with tens of thousands of illustrative quotations culled from usage, do let me know.

To adapt the words of Zamenhof - Por ke lingvo-projekto estu lingvo, ne estas sufiĉe nomi ĝin tia.

sudanglo:To adapt the words of Zamenhof - Por ke lingvo-projekto estu lingvo, ne estas sufiĉe nomi ĝin tia.

What exactly was the source of your "adapted" quotation? The same sentiment is expressed in Zamenhof's Esenco kaj Estonteco de Ideo de Lingvo internacia:

Ĉio tio, kio ĉiutage estas alportata al vi de la gazetoj sub la laŭta nomo de "novaj lingvoj internaciaj", estas nur projektoj, en rapideco kaj sen sufiĉa pripenso elbakitaj projektoj, kiuj de realiĝo staras ankoraŭ tre kaj tre malproksime.

I translate freely:

"All that the periodicals bring you daily, loudly proclaimed as a "new international language" are only projects, made at speed and half-baked, whose realisation is already further and further off".

Miland:

sudanglo:To adapt the words of Zamenhof - Por ke lingvo-projekto estu lingvo, ne estas sufiĉe nomi ĝin tia.

What exactly was the source of your "adapted" quotation?

Por ke lingvo estu internacia, ne sufichas nomi ghin tia.

(according to my memory)

darkweasel:Por ke lingvo estu internacia, ne sufichas nomi ghin tia.

(according to my memory)

Where exactly does it come from? Which book, which page, or which webpage?