Aportes: 81
Idioma: English
darkweasel (Mostrar perfil) 21 de diciembre de 2011 15:13:49
Miland:I don't know where Zamenhof said it, but Wikiquote has it as well.darkweasel:Por ke lingvo estu internacia, ne sufichas nomi ghin tia.Where exactly does it come from? Which book, which page, or which webpage?
(according to my memory)
erinja (Mostrar perfil) 21 de diciembre de 2011 15:43:02
Miland:Where exactly does it come from? Which book, which page, or which webpage?It's a strange situation. The sentence was printed on the cover of the "Unua Libro". However, since the Unua Libro was intended for people who didn't yet speak Esperanto, many Esperanto renderings of the quote are translations from another language. Therefore you sometimes see it with the word order altered somewhat (ĝin nomi or nomi ĝin) and with a few variant words (internacia or tutmonda).
You can see the page here in French or English.
This page is the Esperanto version of the Unua Libro, and it renders the quote as "Por ke lingvo estu tutmonda, ne sufiĉas nomi ĝin tia"
There is an excellent website that publishes the text of the English-language version of the "Unua Libro" online, in easy-to-read HTML formatting (so no need for reading old page scans). You can find that here. Scroll down to "Introduction" to reach Zamenhof's introduction to the Unua Libro, which sounds remarkably reasonable and clear-headed, even today. For those able to read Esperanto easily, you can get the original Esperanto text of his antaŭparolo here.
Miland (Mostrar perfil) 21 de diciembre de 2011 16:10:11
Чтобы язык был всемирным, не достаточно назвать его таковым.
Google's translation appears to support the "quote" in Esperanto, which also has the advantage of rhyming, like the entries in Zamenhof's Proverbaro.
bartlett22183 (Mostrar perfil) 21 de diciembre de 2011 19:56:31
sudanglo:I think sudanglo is confusing terms here, the difference between 'conlang' and 'auxlang'.by learning it (Esperanto) you are supporting the idea of IALsThe issue here is not so much one of denigration as distinction.
I object to the idea of lumping Esperanto with the conlangs.
A conlang is any constructed language. Therefore, Esperanto is most definitely and unquestionably a conlang, just as much so as Klingon or Toki Pona. However, E-o is also an auxlang, an international auxiliary language. An auxlang can be either a conlang or a natlang. (For instance, English is today both a natlang and an auxlang.)
On the other hand, there are many conlangs which are not intended to be auxlangs, and numerous conlangers have little interest in auxlangs. Years ago, there was the CONLANG mailing list at Brown University. So many "auxlang wars" erupted from time to time that the "non-aux" conlangers got upset, so David Durand created the AUXLANG mailing list (of which I am now primary listowner) to allow the "non-aux" conlangers some peace. Both lists still exist, although traffic on AUXLANG has fallen off recently.
I think that sudanglo may need to make a distinction between constructed auxiliary languages (most definitely including Esperanto, which is truly a conlang) with real user bases, and what some people call language projects, constructed auxlangs which never really get off the ground, or have not done so much at present.
E-o definitely has the largest user base of all the conlang auxiliary languages (sometimes referred to as conIALs), although there are some real users of other languages such as Ido and Interlingua. But that does not change the fact that Esperanto is a conlang.
ludomastro (Mostrar perfil) 22 de diciembre de 2011 05:37:24
lgg (Mostrar perfil) 22 de diciembre de 2011 07:52:46
Esperanto is not a supported locale or keyboard in Linux operating system.
Esperanto is "OK" conlang, but it does nothing to became actual language. Its enthusiasts expired, and no new prominent ones in sight.
Matthieu (Mostrar perfil) 22 de diciembre de 2011 10:44:15
lgg:Esperanto is not a supported locale or keyboard in Linux operating system.It is.
darkweasel (Mostrar perfil) 22 de diciembre de 2011 11:03:58
lgg:This sentence says a lot about the credibility of your continuous trolling on this forum.
Esperanto is not a supported locale or keyboard in Linux operating system.
sudanglo (Mostrar perfil) 22 de diciembre de 2011 12:14:51
Therefore, Esperanto is most definitely and unquestionably a conlang, just as much so as Klingon or Toki PonaYou miss my point Bartlett - which is precisely that Esperanto is not a conlang (as the term is usually understood) and that it is sufficiently different that it should not be labelled as such.
This would be true even if Esperanto, like Klingon, had no lingua franca aspirations.
It is the facts of usage, development through time, and social consensus over meaning and correctness of forms which distinguish it from the conlangs.
Of course, Esperanto has features which are rare in the natural languages and probably could only have arisen from design, but that's not enough to prevent it from being misleading to bracket it with the conlangs.
1Guy1 (Mostrar perfil) 22 de diciembre de 2011 12:24:32
lgg:Esperanto is "OK" conlang, but it does nothing to became actual language. Its enthusiasts expired, and no new prominent ones in sight.I would also challenge this.
Look at Lernu - enthusiastic people working hard to successfully promote Esperanto with a growing website.
Well done team Lernu.