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Bits and Blades

od NJ Esperantist, 15. januára 2012

Príspevky: 30

Jazyk: English

NJ Esperantist (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 17:57:34

Chainy:
NJ Esperantist:What would you call a 2x4 in Esperanto to be sure you are not given just anything that could be called a beam?
"Trabo kun dimensioj 2 x 4 coloj/futoj". How big is this beam?!

I'm not too sure how to express the 'x', though. "Oble" doesn't seem to fit, but I might be wrong...
That 'x' has been the biggest buggaboo in this context.

NJ Esperantist (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 18:03:22

erinja:2x4's don't even have a true dimension of 2x4" anymore.

But since that's what they're called, you could certainly continue to call them that in Esperanto. "2-je-4-cola trabo"
Gotta be the most helpful answer I ever got for this question. One supposes that if you were working with a fellow carpenter Esperantist that it could be shortned to 'du-je-kvar', with the unit (cola) understood. this understandably would likely not work if you were helping out a Czech friend living in Belgium... rido.gif

erinja (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 18:07:25

I didn't look it up in a dictionary, but if PAG suggests "per", then that's fine. I picked "je" at random after no other prepositions presented themselves in the moment's thought that I gave it.

"per" isn't an obvious choice in my opinion, based on its root meaning. I didn't check any references before your message, but PMEG seems to suggest on its page for per that je could be a better choice in cases of expressing measurement. However neither of the pages discusses the precise situation we're discussing (nor does the page on mathematical expressions).

erinja (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 18:10:39

NJ Esperantist:One supposes that if you were working with a fellow carpenter Esperantist that it could be shortned to 'du-je-kvar'
I didn't include this in my original response but thinking about the situation in my head, I can easily imagine myself in an informal situation [assuming everyone present knew what a 2x4 was], saying something like "Restas malmultaj du-je-kvaroj, necesas aĉeti pli."

Chainy (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 18:34:15

erinja:"per" isn't an obvious choice in my opinion, based on its root meaning. I didn't check any references before your message, but PMEG seems to suggest on its page for per that je could be a better choice in cases of expressing measurement. However neither of the pages discusses the precise situation we're discussing (nor does the page on mathematical expressions).
Yes, I also hesitated with this one, so I can see why you turned to 'je'.

It's kind of surprising that PMEG missed this out on that page about mathematical expressions. It's quite a common thing to talk about, after all.

Neither NPIV2002, nor ReVo seem to include any information on this either!

PAG does mention 'per', so I suppose we should accept either form.

erinja (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 19:42:31

Chainy:It's kind of surprising that PMEG missed this out on that page about mathematical expressions. It's quite a common thing to talk about, after all.
I might e-mail Bertilo and ask his opinion. Maybe he'll update PMEG to include it (or who knows, maybe it's already there, simply in a section I didn't think to check)

EDIT:

I asked Bertilo's opinion. He recommends "oble". He noted, in his response, that he has received this question a number of times, and always from Americans! Very interesting. Though of course not all of this thread's active participants are Americans, so clearly this isn't a topic of interest to Americans only.

Chainy (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 21:18:01

erinja:
EDIT:

I asked Bertilo's opinion. He recommends "oble". He noted, in his response, that he has received this question a number of times, and always from Americans! Very interesting. Though of course not all of this thread's active participants are Americans, so clearly this isn't a topic of interest to Americans only.
I'm trying to work out why I was/am confused about this. The dimensions do indeed show a multiplication of square blocks of inches or whatever, but... (maybe there is no 'but'..?)

Did Mr. Wennergren add any more details, like how would you write it?

"Duoble-kvar-cola trabo"? Would that be clear? It seems like it might be better to keep the 'oble' separate, or is that just because I can't get the English expression out of my head?

"Trabo kun dimensioj de duoble kvar coloj" (?)

Miland (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 22:07:52

If I am guessing Bertil's meaning correctly, the word oble should be used separately, in the place of the English word "by", thus: 2 oble 4.

erinja (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 22:21:22

The example I gave Bertilo was an item measuring 10x20 cm. The example sentence he gave me was "La mezuro estas 10 cm oble 20 cm".

However that's a simple declarative statement, "The measurement is 10 cm x 20 cm."

For a 2x4, if you wanted to use the measurement in the form of an adjective, you would link the expression of a measurement into a single word.

So:
La mezuro de la trabo estas 2 oble 4 coloj.
The measurement of the beam is 2x4 inches.

but:
Mi konstruis mian domon per 2-oble-4-colaj traboj.
I built my house using 2x4's

Sadly, "du-oble-kvaroj" doesn't have the same lovely ring to it as "du-per-kvaroj" in my idiomatic Esperanto version of "Two-by-fours". ploro.gif

sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 17. januára 2012 23:27:15

For my ear, du oble kvar is too close to duoble kvar (ie 8 inches).

I would prefer 2 je 4. And I guess that this is what most Esperantists would spontaneously say, if they were in situation where they had to specify a cross-section's dimensions.

Nov-Zelandano, there is a very detailed 800 page illustrated dictionary - based on the Duden illustrations circa 1958 - that came out in the 80's.

It has all sorts of weird and wonderful tools and machinery in it, but it is out of print now, I believe.

You might be able to pick up a second-hand copy from somewhere.

Nahor