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Worry about + phrase

door EldanarLambetur, 8 februari 2012

Berichten: 77

Taal: English

EldanarLambetur (Profiel tonen) 12 februari 2012 23:42:10

However, in your desert example, I think "arbaro" would be legitimate for him. It isn't just a collection of trees to the man, it's an entity not witnessed in the desert before. He would however maybe find that upon showing the "arbaro" to his jungle friend, she would simply say "Ĉu tio estas via "arbaro"? Ĝi estas nur (eta) aro da arboj!"

As for worries about building a word you don't know, if you've already recalled the components "aro" and "arbo", you can already just say "aro da arboj". If you really think there's something special about the collection, then compound it.

I don't think this is complicated or a trap for beginners. I don't think it eliminates patterns either. You will always have the pattern "aro da X". If X is actually defined by being such a collection (rather than just any old collection), like a "wood" is (it's defined as a type of collection of tree), then compound for that emphasis!

Sudanglo makes a good point that knowledge of the world influences (and it will always influence) how we speak (in any practical and useful language anyway). Which is why I think the desert man may use "arbaro" for what the rest of us clearly see as "aro da arboj". In much the same way as I'm sure we all have our ideas about the difference between "bela" and "belega".

Compounding is just one way in which we emphasise particular concepts. And the understanding of "wood" from "arbaro" comes from using your world-knowledge and the context to determine what is the most suitable word to be derived from "arbaro".

(Sidenote: I think that there must be parts of Esperanto that must act like a natural language or we'd all be trying to talk some impossible logic language)

EldanarLambetur (Profiel tonen) 12 februari 2012 23:43:04

Apologies for the massive mind dump! ridulo.gif

sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 13 februari 2012 13:54:49

(Sidenote: I think that there must be parts of Esperanto that must act like a natural language
It seems to me to be pretty safe to conclude that Esperanto must be congruent with the human mind (as opposed to the Martian or extraterrestrial mind).

However as all languages are social phenomena and we know that humans have very different ideas about the organization of their societies, it is also safe to conclude that it may follow different principles to other languages.

The idea of a game may be universal but the rules of games can vary widely.

The way in which the Esperanto speaking community values principles and systematic conformity to those principles, whilst no different in kind to the regularities that can be observed in natural languages, has such an intense application in the case of Esperanto that this alone completely justifies the assertion that Esperanto is different.

To this, of course, we can add:-

that it is the only adults-only language on the planet;

that reference is made to normative texts;

that new words and expressions are subject to debate and revision in a way that doesn't often occur in natural languages;

some other features which may not have thought of.

darkweasel (Profiel tonen) 13 februari 2012 14:07:20

sudanglo:
that it is the only adults-only language on the planet;
Even disregarding native speakers, I registered here at lernu! at the age of 14 years.

goli (Profiel tonen) 13 februari 2012 14:21:38

darkweasel:
sudanglo:
that it is the only adults-only language on the planet;
Even disregarding native speakers, I registered here at lernu! at the age of 14 years.
And I'm 14 now. Signed up there when I was 12-13.

sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 13 februari 2012 14:40:58

Congratulations to both of you - but 14 is at the margin of being an adult from the point of view of language learning, and despite the existence of some child learners my general point holds.

Esperanto isn't a language which, un-selfconsciously, you absorb from the adults around you.

erinja (Profiel tonen) 13 februari 2012 16:59:35

sudanglo:Esperanto isn't a language which, un-selfconsciously, you absorb from the adults around you.
Unless you're a denaskulo, in which case you do.

sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 13 februari 2012 22:44:26

Perhaps, but the denaskuloj are a very tiny proportion of the total number of speakers and have no influence on the language.

They may not even speak it that well, given that they will only learn it from occasional use by their parents, or even one parent only - or perhaps from very infrequent participation in a congress for a week.

The language is determined by speakers who learn in adulthood from explicitly understood principles, and as such is clearly distinguished from the natural languages.

hebda999 (Profiel tonen) 13 februari 2012 23:48:24

Due to logical structure of Esperanto it is even impropriet to teach it as the first language - correct use of Esperanto requires intelect which a young child can not have yet. Most childern learn their language by heart.

EldanarLambetur (Profiel tonen) 14 februari 2012 01:06:15

Doesn't the correct use of any language require intellect which a young child cannot have? And children tend to trip up on the irregularities of language, not so much the bits that make perfect sense.

I'm sure that if there were plenty of native speakers of Esperanto with not a full grasp of the grammar, there'd still be even more adult learners who are beginners forever, or who equally don't have a full grasp of the grammar.

While Esperanto itself is still kept neat and tidy officially, I'd definitely prefer having more speakers of Esperanto who perhaps aren't amazing speakers of it, rather than far fewer Esperantists who can all speak it perfectly.

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