Viestejä: 43
Kieli: English
pdenisowski (Näytä profiilli) 13. helmikuuta 2012 1.55.37
erinja:When I was in college we always called them "Orwellian"Evildela:I'm a native English speaker... and today was the first time I ever heard of dystopia. I'm also very well educated so I'd assume that this word isn't very "international"This surprises me.
A novel like 1984, what kind of world would you say it describes? I've seen it described pretty universally as dystopian.
If I described conditions of something as "dickensian", would you know what I meant?Absolutely, but I'm not sure the next generation will : they're all reading "Hunger Games" instead of "Tale of Two Cities."
I've had to stop using words like "Machiavellian" or "Kafka-esque" because fewer and fewer people seem to know what I'm talking about.
anarchtea (Näytä profiilli) 13. helmikuuta 2012 8.47.29
I found another Esperanto dictionary (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/art/utopi.html) that listed malutopio but, being a komencanto, I've no idea how trustworthy it is.
I suspect every British child won't be allowed to get through 2012 without knowing what "Dickensian" means: it's his bicentenary and is inescapable here. As for "dystopian", if anyone was unaware of it and is now interested, I have a long list of excellent reading (and watching) I can share.
tommjames (Näytä profiilli) 13. helmikuuta 2012 11.09.26
As for the word to use in Esperanto, I would prefer 'malutopio' myself. In my mind a dystopia is quite sufficiently an opposite of a utopia. Concerns over details like the fact that a utopia may be considered unrealistic and a dystopia more plausible do seem a bit nit-picky. Would anybody be confused or even care about such a detail when encountering or using 'malutopio'? I doubt it. They're just going to have the imagery of a squalid place where everything is as bad as it gets, which seems to me to capture the meaning well enough for all practical purposes.
sudanglo (Näytä profiilli) 13. helmikuuta 2012 11.23.44
erinja (Näytä profiilli) 13. helmikuuta 2012 13.19.24
tommjames:They're just going to have the imagery of a squalid place where everything is as bad as it gets, which seems to me to capture the meaning well enough for all practical purposes.Wait, so what you're saying is, we should use the word "dikensa"?
I don't particularly like the look of "malutopio" but it's clearly the best word, in my opinion.
I am trying to think of whether I have ever read a book by Dickens, and I think not, though I have seen several TV adaptations. And I have never read "The Prince", nor have I read anything by Kafka. Yet I'm easily able to correctly use "Dickensian", "machiavellian", and "Kafkaesque", simply from having been in society and having read a lot of other things.
pdenisowski (Näytä profiilli) 13. helmikuuta 2012 13.27.56
anarchtea:Wow. It's very interesting to see such a stark contrast between it being commonplace for some, and unknown to others.I think it might be a generational thing. Interestingly, the word "dystopia" (translated as "malutopio") is in the new edition of Wells' dictionary (2010) but is not in the older edition (1985). [see attached photo]
I found another Esperanto dictionary (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/art/utopi.html) that listed malutopio but, being a komencanto, I've no idea how trustworthy it is.ReVo is, in my opinion, an excellent resource. It also has "kontraŭutopio."
In the next release of ESPDIC (which is now up to over 46,000 entries) I'll be including all three variants (malutopio, distopio, and kontraŭutopio).
Amike,
Paul
Chainy (Näytä profiilli) 14. helmikuuta 2012 10.37.43
sudanglo:Anyway to justify mal-utopio you have to show that a distopio is the malo of an utopio.The New American Oxford Dictionary, as found on my computer, certainly presents 'dystopia' as the opposite of 'utopia' (see attachment below). So the obvious choice is to use 'malutopio' - in fact, this is also the translation that Wells gives.
I am not convinced. A utopia is a fantasy where everything is wonderful (an unrealistic dream). Dystopia often describes a depressing more plausible reality, doesn't it?
sudanglo (Näytä profiilli) 14. helmikuuta 2012 10.41.29
I fail to see how fantasmo and revo can have malojn.
erinja (Näytä profiilli) 14. helmikuuta 2012 12.58.18
pdenisowski:When I was in college we always called them "Orwellian"I guess it depends on how limited or expansive you are in your definition of "dystopia".
If by "dystopia" you are only referring to totalitarian societies, then "orwellian" would be a synonym.
But if "dystopia" also includes situations where society has gone horribly wrong in one way or another, not necessarily due to a government, including complete societal collapse and anarchy, then I wouldn't call that "orwellian" at all. "Orwellian" implies a strong central government controlling the lives of its citizens, and that's hardly possible in a situation where you have no government at all.
RiotNrrd (Näytä profiilli) 14. helmikuuta 2012 17.42.28
Every story that Erinja listed is considered to be science fiction. 1984, A Clockwork Orange, etc. I would hazard that "dystopia" is more of a science fiction word than not - if you're talking about a dystopia, you are probably talking about something speculative.
Some people don't like (or read) science fiction. Actually, many people don't. Which might explain why so many people have never heard of the word.