sudanglo:I feel that this conveys a different aspect

Well, yes. But you were talking about "extending" or "specialising" an existing word. Primara looks to me a better canditate (if you wanted to do that at all) than a root denoting a mathematical concept.

In any case I prefer erinja's "malbonkredita", much clearer and doesn't require any non-standard usage.

sudanglo:Google translate which now offers translation into and from Esperanto, shows 'prima situo' for prime location.

I really hope you're kidding about using Google Translate to validate Esperanto usage.

The PIV is pretty clear that "prima" means "prime" only in the mathematical sense although you could conceivably use prima for the adjective forms of primo meaning prime (morning religious service) or prime (fencing position).

Using "prima" for English "prime (best, choice)" is, in my opinion, incorrect and unncessary. Esperanto already has plenty of ways to express this, e.g. (la) plej bona, bonega, supera, etc.

Among English speakers I think there is an unfortunate tendency to think that one can simply Esperantize any English word (since English words are seen as de facto "international" words).

Amike,

Paul

P.S. The phrase "prima situo" gets zero matches on Google.

A little bit of history, Denis. Zamenhof said that if you couldn't find a word in Esperanto you could borrow it from French.

This was, of course, at a time when French was the International Language - a role now taken by English.

But although English native speakers could point to this, it is not my experience (Esperantist for some 50 years now) that there is a marked tendency for English Esperantists to follow suit. Quite the reverse.

I have observed English Esperantists avoiding words, that are in fact international, from the supposition that they might be Anglismoj.

Of course if an English word is international (borrowed by many languages) then under rule 15 it may be admitted to Esperanto with the necessary Esperantigo)

The advantage of allowing subprimaj pruntoj for subprime loans is the instant recognizablity for speakers of many different languages - it's what rule 15 is for.

There is no likelihood that this will be understood as loans that are less than a prime number. And the expression can be validated by allowing prima to mean more than the narrow definition given to primo en PIV.

Furthermore prim is not exactly an alien form in the European languages

Extending Primara (Tom's suggestion) on the other hand loses a useful distinction - when we want to refer to the primary function of something without suggesting that is top in a hierarchical sense.

Bona and bonega are too lame for 'prime' and simply do not include the idea of top ranking.

Also, what is prime may not be that good - it is just the best available (relative to the other options).

Wouldn't "top-ranking" or "primary" be:

unua-ranga?

(duaranga = secondary, triaranga = tertiary)

Could you have "sub-unuaranga" for "sub-prime" "below first-rate"?

EDIT: only just noticed this post (below), woops!

Actually I think that Esperanto needs a short way of expressing the idea of top-ranking
How about primara? Revo has the difinition "Unuaranga, unuagrada."

sudanglo:A little bit of history, Denis. Zamenhof said that if you couldn't find a word in Esperanto you could borrow it from French.

Really? Where??? Sorry to ask for a reference (it's the academic in me), but my copy of the Fundamento doesn't say anything about French, not even in Rule 15.

sudanglo:Of course if an English word is international (borrowed by many languages) then under rule 15 it may be admitted to Esperanto with the necessary Esperantigo)

Rule 15 also states that "derivatives are better formed (from the primary word) according to the rules of the international grammar"

sudanglo:The advantage of allowing subprimaj pruntoj for subprime loans is the instant recognizablity for speakers of many different languages - it's what rule 15 is for.

There is no likelihood that this will be understood as loans that are less than a prime number. And the expression can be validated by allowing prima to mean more than the narrow definition given to primo en PIV.

I actually like "subprimaj pruntoj" (because there is no such thing as sub-prime in mathematics), but disagree with allowing "prima" to mean "prime" as in "best, highest, choice". What's next? Prima bifsteko?

sudanglo:Furthermore prim is not exactly an alien form in the European languages

Don't assume that most European languages use "prim-" in the sense of "best, top, highest-ranking, main".

And since I dislike talking about "other languages" without giving concrete examples ...

German :
prime time (TV) : Hauptsendezeit
prime ribs : Hochrippen
prime meridian : Nullmeridian
prime motive : Hauptmotiv

Polish :
prime interest rate : najlepsza stopa procentowa
prime number : liczba pierwsza (!!!)

Note that in French "prime rate" is either "taux préférentiel" or "taux de base"

sudanglo:Bona and bonega are too lame for 'prime' and simply do not include the idea of top ranking.

"Too lame" is an opinion. Besides, "prime" rate is not the top-ranking rate, it is the most favorable or preferential (favora, prefera) rate.

Again, I like "subprimaj pruntoj" (as a limited-use idiom), but I think the expansion of the meaning of "prima" for the sake of one (hopefully) temporary situation is not something I would endorse.

Amike,

Paul

EldanarLambetur:Wouldn't "top-ranking" or "primary" be:

unua-ranga?

(duaranga = secondary, triaranga = tertiary)

Could you have "sub-unuaranga" for "sub-prime" "below first-rate"?

EDIT: only just noticed this post (below), woops!

Actually I think that Esperanto needs a short way of expressing the idea of top-ranking
How about primara? Revo has the difinition "Unuaranga, unuagrada."

I think unuaranga and duaranga make a lot of sense.

Esperanto is language in which both principle and usage count.

If we could only appeal to usage Esperanto would not have been able to make the progress it has.

Subprimaj pruntoj (we agree on this Denis) is the obvious form for subprime loans (reasons given earlier),

However, this presents some problems of principle.

Is subprim to be a new root? Hardly since this would be of very limited applicability.

Is Subprima to be analysed as sub-prim-a? This is more productive, producing prima for use in other contexts, and in other compounds.

Although this looks like an innovation, unsupported by usage or normative text, for Esperanto, this not a conclusive argument.

Taking this position would have prevented many lexical innovations in the past that are now firmly established.

I have an old Esperanto-English dictionary (reprinted several times 1924-1956) which suggests prima was recognised at one time as 'first', 'top', highest.

I wonder if any Forum members have old national language dictionaries for other languages with entries for 'prima'?

The problem with 'New Deal' (adopted widely by other languages), on the other hand, seems insoluble under rule 15.

Don't assume that most European languages use "prim-" in the sense of "best, top, highest-ranking, main".

Your translations don't prove that this meaning is unknown in the languages quoted, merely that the expressions you list are not translated with 'Prim'.

That argument is like saying that Prim is unrecognizable to an Esperanto speaker because Prime Minister is Ĉef-ministro in Esperanto.

It is by no means certain that PIV and its predecessors have always chosen the best form as the headword entry.

Lumi (UV) now listed as Lumo, just to give one example.

Arguably manifestiĝi, manifesti and manifestigi suggest that the head should be manifesta and not manifesto - a very specific thing that manifests (political policies, ship cargo)

A head word entry of Prima could generate Primo for specific cases of primeco (prime number,early religious service, first position in fencing). Then we would have a satisfactory conformity with principle.

pdenisowski:

EldanarLambetur:Wouldn't "top-ranking" or "primary" be:

unua-ranga?

(duaranga = secondary, triaranga = tertiary)

Could you have "sub-unuaranga" for "sub-prime" "below first-rate"?

EDIT: only just noticed this post (below), woops!

Actually I think that Esperanto needs a short way of expressing the idea of top-ranking
How about primara? Revo has the difinition "Unuaranga, unuagrada."

I think unuaranga and duaranga make a lot of sense.

I agree.

sudanglo:
Subprimaj pruntoj (we agree on this Denis) is the obvious form for subprime loans (reasons given earlier)

I'm not quite sure why such a word seems obvious to you. Ok, so various languages use 'subprime' in relation to the US, but presumably they are copying the American pronunciation of that word (well at least approximately), which would be rendered in Esperanto as 'subprajm/', and certainly not 'subprim/' (read those according to the Esperanto method of pronunciation - the latter sounds utterly bizarre and nobody would recognise it!)

However, I think it might not really be necessary to introduce such a word as there are probably other ways to describe such loans/mortgages. Many languages seem to cope perfectly fine without such a word.