How about 'subnorma kredito'?

Chainy:How about 'subnorma kredito'?

Since "subnorma" normally means "substandard" (as in "subnorma lingvaĵo / lingvouzo"), my feeling is that "subnorma kredito" would be a perfectly good translation of "substandard credit" (i.e. poor credit).

Amike,

Paul

Chainy:

sudanglo:
Subprimaj pruntoj (we agree on this Denis) is the obvious form for subprime loans (reasons given earlier)

I'm not quite sure why such a word seems obvious to you. Ok, so various languages use 'subprime' in relation to the US, but presumably they are copying the American pronunciation of that word (well at least approximately), which would be rendered in Esperanto as 'subprajm/', and certainly not 'subprim/' (read those according to the Esperanto method of pronunciation - the latter sounds utterly bizarre and nobody would recognise it!)

However, I think it might not really be necessary to introduce such a word as there are probably other ways to describe such loans/mortgages. Many languages seem to cope perfectly fine without such a word.

Good points. I always try to avoid neologisms whenever possible. "Malfavoraj pruntoj" would be my vote for a more "esperanteca vorto".

Amike,

Paul

pdenisowski:

Chainy:How about 'subnorma kredito'?

Since "subnorma" normally means "substandard" (as in "subnorma lingvaĵo / lingvouzo"), my feeling is that "subnorma kredito" would be a perfectly good translation of "substandard credit" (i.e. poor credit).

Amike,

Paul

I've come across this expression in Russian (субстандартные ипотечные кредиты = subnormaj hipotekaj kreditoj) as a way of translating 'subprimes'. But I have the impression that in Russian they usually add the American expression in brackets just to make it clear.

I suppose the idea is that they are 'substandard' in the fact that they were being issued to people who would not normally be regarded as being creditworthy, which goes against the general standard of loans.

pdenisowski:"Malfavoraj pruntoj" would be my vote for a more "esperanteca vorto".

But, were they necessarily 'malfavoraj'? Without such subprimes, many people would presumably not have been eligible for any form of credit to buy a house. So, the people that took out the subprimes probably regarded them as being rather favourable, at least before the house prices started to fall...

In Britain a subprime would probably just be called a mortgage with a variable interest rate (hipoteko kun variebla interezo). Clearly a risky business. A very 'riska hipoteko'.

but presumably they are copying the American pronunciation

With Google Translate you have the option to hear the pronunciation of the translated expression in the target language.

If you look at the cases where languages have used the term subprime in the translation of subprime loan, they generally don't say something that sounds like subprajm (but the Japanese apparently do).

And in Esperanto in the adoption of international words it is the spelling that is more often the determinant rather than the pronunciation (for obvious reasons).

Obviously, one can translate the meaning into Esperanto - alt-riskaj pruntoj, pruntoj al ne-kreditinduloj, and so on, but in so doing one loses the instant recognizability.

Imagine an analysis of the 2008 financial crisis in the Financial Times in which one referred to 'iffy loans' or 'dodgy borrowers' - you see the issue.

Anyway, I raised the issue to point out that rule 15 solutions can be unworkable or present special difficulties in Esperanto. I use New Deal and Sub-prime just as examples of the problem.

National languages can import foreign terms with less difficulty. They are not under the same constraints to preserve systematicity.

By the way, I discovered that if you don't type the initial caps for New Deal, then Google Translate gives something like nova akordo for the Romance languages. But with the initial caps you get variations on 'New Deal'.

sudanglo:Extending Primara (Tom's suggestion) on the other hand loses a useful distinction - when we want to refer to the primary function of something without suggesting that is top in a hierarchical sense.

Bona and bonega are too lame for 'prime' and simply do not include the idea of top ranking.

Also, what is prime may not be that good - it is just the best available (relative to the other options).

Primary function = ĉefa funkcio.

- "Primara" doesn't seem to be correct in that context.

The use of 'primara' might indeed be possible in relation to 'prime credit' etc... So then we'd have "subprimara kredito" (?)

sudanglo:Obviously, one can translate the meaning into Esperanto - alt-riskaj pruntoj, pruntoj al ne-kreditinduloj, and so on, but in so doing one loses the instant recognizability.

I think your suggestions (alt-riskaj pruntoj, pruntoj al ne-kreditinduloj) are very good. Much easier to understand than 'subprime'!

One advantage of reading something in translation is that if the original uses an unclear term, the translation can sometimes write the text in clearer language.

I think that's clearly the case with "subprime". There's no need to imitate the English term and wind up with a word just as unclear as the English; it's an excellent chance to come up with a term that can be understood easily by anyone who speaks Esperanto.

Chainy:

pdenisowski:"Malfavoraj pruntoj" would be my vote for a more "esperanteca vorto".

But, were they necessarily 'malfavoraj'? Without such subprimes, many people would presumably not have been eligible for any form of credit to buy a house. So, the people that took out the subprimes probably regarded them as being rather favourable, at least before the house prices started to fall...

All too true ...

Chainy:In Britain a subprime would probably just be called a mortgage with a variable interest rate (hipoteko kun variebla interezo). Clearly a risky business. A very 'riska hipoteko'.

In the United States there are plenty of ARMs (adjustable rate mortgages) that are not subprime. Subprime simply means the mortgage holder pays a higher interest rate (fixed or variable) than someone with better credit -- in other words, "subprime" means you don't get the best ("prime") interest rate.

I think your comments show the problems in using Anglicisms in Esperanto : apparently the usage of "subprime" varies even among native English speakers in different countries.

The reason I like "malfavora" (which is only one of many possible translations) is that it's sufficiently broad to cover all kinds of "unfavorable" loans. In my mind, subprime essentially means you're getting a less favorable interest rate/payment scheme.

Amike,
Paul