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What do you think of this?

de sudanglo, 13 martie 2012

Contribuții/Mesaje: 23

Limbă: English

sudanglo (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 12:04:01

From Broadribb's translation of Alice in Wonderland:

.. sed poste (la tunelo) eksubeniris, tiom subite, ke Alico ne havis momenton en kiu pensi pri haltigi sin antaŭ ol ŝi trovis sin falanta en ..

EldanarLambetur (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 13:00:35

Well the most striking thing for me was my parsing of "eksubeniris"

I've seen "eniri" so much by itself, that I parsed it like "ek-sub-eniri"

But am I right in saying that it should be using "suben" = "below", instead of "sub en"?

It confused me for a moment. Does it mean that the tunnel appeared suddenly below her?

The other thing is, is it good style to say "pri haltigi"? I've only really seen "krom", "anstataux" and "por" (and maybe "sen") used in this way and at the same time confirmed in the PMEG. Or is pri different in some way?

sudanglo (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 14:56:00

The alternative parsing of eksubeniris never occurred to me Eldanar, and I think that in context the intended parsing is fine and would seem obvious.

I posted to see what people thought about 'pri haltigi'. It seems to me, lately, that I am increasingly coming across more adventurous combinations of preposition and infinitive than are permitted in classical Esperanto.

Anyway, I wonder how you would rephrase, to avoid 'pri haltigi sin'.

erinja (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 15:15:54

I'd use "pripensi haltigi sin"

sudanglo (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 15:38:12

Yes, but pripensi ion seems to suggest a fairly deliberative process.

The original English is probably something like 'she didn't have time to think of stopping before she found herself falling ...'

I have never been able to think of a logical reason why we say sen haltigi, but not, normally, 'pri haltigi'. Is there one?

erinja (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 15:47:55

I believe that Zamenhof recommended against ever using a verb after a preposition, except in cases where it absolutely couldn't be avoided. He suggested use of a noun whenever possible, so he would have suggested, for example, not "sen ĉesi" but "sen ĉeso".

I believe Zamenhof would have suggested "pri haltigo". Technically I believe he would even have approved of "pri haltigo sin" but I don't really like that usage too much; if it were me using the form, I'd leave out "sin" because I believe it to be understood through context.

I have a feeling that in 50 years time pri+infinitive will be common and no one will think of it anymore. But personally I avoid it.

To answer your actual question, I believe that "pri haltigi" is not inherently less acceptable than "sen haltigi". The "sen" version has crept in somehow and become acceptable with time, but its success hasn't lent an "aura of acceptability" to related forms!

Hyperboreus (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 17:37:56

Forigite

sudanglo (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 21:23:40

HB, you confirm my suspicion that pri+inf is becoming established. Can you see a linguistic reason why Zamenhof didn't use it himself? I've also noticed post+inf (after X-ing) used sometimes.

I don't think I have ever encountered de+inf, though the romance languages (Spanish, Italian, French, maybe more) seem to have this structure and English has of X-ing.

In translating the 'the feeling of flying through the air', we might say la sento de flugado tra la aero, but why not la sento de flugi tra la aero?

To translate 'the feeling of being loved' I can't use a noun - la sento de esto amata*. I suppose you can say la senton, esti amata - but I find this a little uncomfortable.

Can I say for 'his love of playing golf', lia amo/ŝato/pasio, ludi golfon? What about 'the cost of being the last to join the Euro'?

Hyperboreus (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 21:48:50

Forigite

Hyperboreus (Arată profil) 13 martie 2012, 23:37:01

Forigite

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