Tin nhắn: 59
Nội dung: English
kaffirlily (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 08:42:17 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
sudanglo:When you said you live in rural Australia, Kaffirlily, and couldn't get to a congress, I imagined the outback. But my atlas shows Orange as on a railway line 100 something miles from Sydney, and having an airport.Oh yes, Orange is a city of 40,000 and I certainly travel to Sydney frequently; especially now that my mother is very ill. But because of the nature of my visits there (every visit could be the last), I can't/won't take the time to go to Redfern – the suburb where "Esperanto house" is - which is at least an hour's drive away from my mother's house. As for Orange's airport, it is serviced by ONE airline, which because of lack of competition can charge whatever it pleases. It is cheaper to travel from Sydney to Cairns (some 4,000 km) than from Orange to Sydney (around 250 km).
There's bound to be some sort of Esperanto activity in Sydney. Mind you, no telling in advance what the strangulo-ratio is. Coincidentally, I have a niece in Sydney.
Until 16 months ago, I lived in Sydney – whereabouts is your niece?
tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 17:16:50 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
RiotNrrd:My understanding is that adverbs modify verbs. If that is true, then "bone", the only adverb in the sentence, should modify "sentas", the only verb in the sentence.Adverbs do much more than modify verbs. So no, I don't think it necessarily follows, grammatically, that "bone" must modify "sentas". And in any case, you could always think of it as modifying the implied farti.
RiotNrrd:I understand the intent of the sentence - it is clear what is *meant*, purely from the context. I am just questioning how someone can derive that intended meaning from the words being used to express it, as the words seem to literally be expressing something else entirely.Probably because a) "Mi sentas min bone" is well established for the meaning of "I feel well", so anyone familiar with the language wouldn't even need context, and b) the idea "I'm good at feeling myself" is rather an odd one, so you'd be unlikely to assume someone is trying to say that.
RiotNrrd (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 17:18:09 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
sudanglo:Riot, in Esperanto, the adverb does not always directly link with a verb, but can be used to characterize more generally.These are just examples of adverbial phrases, which are still modifying their associated verbs.
Rilate tion, mi dirus, ke....
Dekstre de la stacidomo, staris eta butiko
Mi tramarŝis la urbon, pensante pri tio, kio ĵus okazis.
Mi eliris spite de tio, ke pluvegis kaj ŝajne ne baldaŭ ĉesos.
Rilate (tion), mi dirus, ke...
"Rilate" modifies "dirus", as it describes how you would be talking (in relation to some subject).
Dekstre (de la stacidomo) staris eta butiko.
"Dekstre" modifies "staris", as it describes where the store stands in relation to the station.
Mi tramarŝis la urbon pensante (pri tio, kio ĵus okazis)
"Pensante" modifies "tramarŝis", as it describes what you were doing while you were walking around.
Mi eliris spite (de tio, ke pluvegis kaj ŝajne ne baldaŭ ĉesos)
"Spite" modifies "eliris", as it describes the manner in which you went out.
All of these examples are fine, but they don't really address the point that I was bringing up, which is that in "mi sentas min bone", the adverb "bone" does not describe the qualities of either pronoun AT ALL; "bone" modifies the verb, such that the sentence means "I feel myself, and I do it well", not "I feel myself to be well". "Bone", in this sentence, describes the manner in which you feel, not simply the quality of feeling good. Qualities are expressed by adjectives, so if you want to say you feel good, you must use an adjective. "Mi sentas min (esti) bona" works for that.
I will be happy to be shown that I am wrong.
tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 17:21:02 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
RiotNrrd:If you want to say you feel good, you must use an adjective. "Mi sentas min (esti) bona" works for that.No, being good and being well are completely different ideas.
RiotNrrd (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 17:42:58 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
tommjames:Probably because a) "Mi sentas min bone" is well established for the meaning of "I feel well", so anyone familiar with the language wouldn't even need context, and b) the idea "I'm good at feeling myself" is rather an odd one, so you'd be unlikely to assume someone is trying to say that.I don't find the explanation "it means X because that's just how people use it" to be a very satisfying argument. While it might be true, it opens the door wide open to idioms; after all, what a sentence means doesn't HAVE to depend on the specific words used - we can attach any meaning we want to any combination of sounds.
But in Esperanto's case, I'd prefer that we didn't fall back so easily on "that's just the way it is" kinds of explanations. Yes, it would be strange to assume someone is saying "I'm good at feeling myself". But we can do better than assuming anything - we can look at the actual words in the sentence and how they relate to each other grammatically. And, it's possible that their intent WAS to say "I'm good at feeling myself". While odd, it's not out of the question.
So, given your preferred interpretation, how exactly would you say "I feel myself, and I do it well" in the shortest possible way in Esperanto? *I* would write "Mi sentas min bone", but that's just me.
tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 18:34:54 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
RiotNrrd:So, given your preferred interpretation, how exactly would you say "I feel myself, and I do it well" in the shortest possible way in Esperanto? *I* would write "Mi sentas min bone", but that's just me.I could quite possibly say "mi sentas min bone" as well, if the context was clear enough, which given the strangeness of this idea seems a distinct possibility. Another way to say it might be "mi bone sentas mian farton".
RiotNrrd:what a sentence means doesn't HAVE to depend on the specific words usedThough you say this in a semi-sarcastic way, you're actually dead right. You be surprised how much meaning is conveyed in spoken interactions, outside the strict purview of the literal interpretation of words and phrases.
Anyway I don't think the acceptability of "mi sentas min bone" for "I feel well" falls back on the argument of that's just the way it is. But if your argument is "it's wrong because 'bone' must modify 'sentas'," I think it is you who needs a more convincing argument to fall back on
sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:17:02 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
Anyway as you point out there's a distinction to be made here.
In British English, I don't feel well means you don't feel in the best of health. And if am I not mistaken the French say Je ne me sens pas bien - not bon.
Certainly, you might say in British English 'I don't feel good about that', but that does not mean you are not well.
If a doctor were testing whether you had lost sensation in a limb, he might enquire in Esperanto Ĉu vi sentas tion bone, kiam mi tuŝas tie. So in other cases Riot's preferred analysis will apply.
I return to my original point that in Mi sentas min bone the adverb implies a general characterization of the circumstances. It acts in an adjekto fashion as many adverbial phrases often do.
In Mi eniris la domon, plene de espero/ esperante vidi ŝin, we are not literally describing a way of walking.
If you say Mi sentas min bona, it potentially raises the issue of good in what respect.
If you had been feeling faint, and this was known to your interlocutor, then I suppose you might well say Mi sentas min pli bona nun as you recovered.
erinja (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 21:52:00 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 22:29:47 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
I can quite imagine someone saying "Kvankam mi ĝenerale fartas bone, mi ĝuste nun sentas min malbone".
Chainy (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 22:39:30 Ngày 27 tháng 3 năm 2012
erinja:I would never use "Mi sentas min bone" if only because that sentence leaves room for doubt as to the meaning (to me the "obvious" meaning is that you're good at feeling yourself)I think that the 'obvious' meaning that you seem to be referring to, would be conveyed as 'Mi palpas min bone'.
I don't see there being any possible way of misunderstanding 'Mi sentas min bone'.