sudanglo:big long post above this

I don't doubt you believe what you say, and you've said it with great eloquence, but I believe your conclusions to be flawed. Your argument basically hinges around the assumption that the political aims of the Esperanto movement are not only what keep it regular, but the only reasonable force that could keep it regular.

But what of Esperanto as a means to learning another language? A push for widespread use of Esperanto in this manner would appear to satisfy all your criteria for perpetuating the language (widespread agreement to maintain regularity, continued use and even growth), but without necessarily including any of the political or ideological trappings of the 'culture'.

I suspect Esperanto already very much is merely an intellectual curiosity -- you yourself hinted as much in the thread about a language survey.

xdzt:(Addressed to sudanglo) Your argument basically hinges around the assumption that the political aims of the Esperanto movement are not only what keep it regular, but the only reasonable force that could keep it regular

I myself learned Esperanto simply because I wanted to be bilingual, and I know me; I knew for a fact that if I didn't pick THE easiest language I could find, I wasn't going to see it through. Because that's just how I roll. For me, the particular language wasn't important - I'm not one who accepts that culture resides in language, so any one was as good as any other as far as I was concerned; the determiner for me was only that it had to be easy, yet still complete. AND easy to find learning materials about. Esperanto fit the bill. The politics of it were immaterial (and for the most part, for me, still are; while I intellectually agree with the aims, in a yeah-that'd-be-cool sort of way, I am not an active movement participant).

I disagree that political aims are necessarily a force involved with keeping the language regular. I think the forces that favor stability and regularity are purely a function of practical necessity. The value of regularity becomes obvious to pretty much anyone who sticks with the language, and I think by the time someone reaches a more or less intermediate stage they will have generally internalized the value of keeping things simple, straightforward, and standardized.

The forces trending towards irregularity and instability are usually embodied by enthusiastic beginners, whose fragile hopes and dreams of a better Esperanto are always* dismissively crushed by the humorless and stern-faced old guard.

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* Always.

sudanglo:So, Kirilo, whilst you personally may have no interest in promoting the spread of Esperanto, in order to use the language correctly you have to accept the sociolinguistic values of the community - which are inseparable from the notion that Esperanto is an appropriate solution to the language problem.

Oh, I totally support the original goal of E-o, so I am part of the movement (although at some distance to the official organisations which I think are dysfunctional) and maybe you know me from linguistic discussions as an eager defender of E-o's regularity.*

All I wanted to say with my original post is that the language and the movement are highly, but not fully congruent, and "we" (from the movement) can't claim the language as only ours. People like xdzt and husaaved have any right to be esperantists without being interested in any political goals or even while critizising them (although personally I think that racist and pro-genocide stuff is utter nonsense).

*I'm not sure, however, whether E-o's regularity is kept only by the political movement; also with regard to other languages learners don't usually start changing the learned language, independently of the motivation they had to learn the language.

It is interesting how some of these threads evolve. This one began with the ugly concept that Esperanto is racist and genocidal. I reject that out of hand. That theory goes beyond nuttiness; it is radical and paranoid as well.

Then the emphasis began to shift to the E-o movement itself. I am in full agreement with xdzt's comments. My interest is entirely with the language. I have no interest whatsoever with the E-o movement. I also agree with RiotNrrd. Sorry, sudanglo, no put down intended.

Movements tend to become political. If you look back over the history of Esperanto, politics haven't been kind to Esperanto. In fact, World Wars I and II almost destroyed it. I see similarities between the E-o movement and progressivism and I want nothing to do with that! My worldview is more conservative and my nature is more pragmatic. Philosophy aside, I see conservatism and pragmatism as being just the opposite of Liberalism as it is taught and worshiped today.

sudanglo, you made the comment earlier on another thread that Esperanto learners seem to come and go -- that a person will progress for years and then simply disappear for a while. Maybe someone should conduct a study -- not of how many people speak Esperanto, but of why that happens. Why do people who are initially attracted to Esperanto suddenly lose that enthusiasm and drop out? What happens to dampen their enthusiasm? It cannot be the website. Lernu is a fine site and the people who post questions and answers all seem to be decent, helpful people.

I'd be willing to bet that it isn't the language that alienates them but an over-focus on the movement.

Do you remember Hyperboreus' comment earlier in this thread about how the attitudes of some Esperantists came as a sledge-hammer blow to him? I wonder what he experienced to make him feel as he does?

Yesterday, quite by accident while using Lernu search, I discovered the thread "Translation competitions" that sudanglo started in early 2011. It is 19 pages long now and I have only read a portion of it, but it is fascinating. A thread such as that helps all of us who are working at learning Esperanto. After 19 pages, it seems to have come to the end of its life, but I hope not. I really enjoyed the thread.

Esperanto has a lot to offer. We just need to understand that politics and movements can become excessive, and that excessive idealism can get old fast.

Why do people who are initially attracted to Esperanto suddenly lose that enthusiasm and drop out

The explanation in many cases would be demands on their time, eg. they get married, have children, have to hold down a job.

In the most famous case, Kabe (whose moniker has been incorporated now as a verb in the language), he just got fed up with the Esperantists, mainly because of their poor command of the language. However, that was some years ago now, in the early days of the language.

I see no evidence that any speakers, having made a certain amount of progress, were subsequently then deterred by the intended role for Esperanto.

I suspect though that some Kabeintoj Kabeis because of an exasperation with the ineffectualness of the movement in achieving the purpose for which it existed.

My point is that you cannot divorce the linguistic features of Esperanto from its purpose.

Esperanto is today as it is because of the enduring commitment to that purpose and without the Movado it would be a very different language, or more likely would have gone that way of all the hundreds of other projects that have popped up during its 125 years of existence.

We have NPIV, PMEG, Lernu.net, Edukado.net, countless course books in a host of different languages, officially recognised exams, an extensive literature etc. all because of a dedication to a political purpose.

Language geekery would never have been enough to sustain the language and enforce discipline in its development.

Of course new learners today may benefit from all this previous investment, but the values which sustained the pioneers of the Movement through the years, cannot now be discarded as irrelevant and only of historical interest.

I return to the point that in striving for good style and correct usage, any learner is still, whether they be conscious of it or not, susbscribing to a concept of the language. A concept which has been consistently supported in the face of a number of factional challenges, and is as relevant in our modern times as it was in the 19th century.

sudanglo:
I see no evidence that any speakers, having made a certain amount of progress, were subsequently then deterred by the intended role for Esperanto.

I know of at least one case (djbumerang = ex lernu! user fekaldemokratio, Akibaaa, and maybe other accounts).

sudanglo:in order to use the language correctly you have to accept the sociolinguistic values of the community

Don't agree with this at all. I personally know several very good speakers who learned Esperanto simply because they, like me, found the language itself intriguing. Nothing to do with the movement or its politics, or interna ideo, or any of the finvenkismo silliness. I for one don't care about any of these things, yet I seem to get by in the language well enough.

People learn how to speak Esperanto properly by studying the language diligently, reading the literature, and emulating the style of great speakers. None of that requires subscription to these sociolinguistic values you speak of.

sudanglo:That political purpose has kept Esperanto alive through many setbacks for 125 years. Without this compelling motivation there really is no point to Esperanto at all

This seems pretty dispiriting to me, and I find it difficult to square that idea with my own experience. For me there was every point to learning Esperanto, and the language has enriched my life in myriad ways. Yet the politics and supposed "purpose" of Esperanto played and continue to play virtually no part at all in what compels and motivates me to continue speaking it. I believe the same can be said for many other people.

Forigite

sudanglo:

Why do people who are initially attracted to Esperanto suddenly lose that enthusiasm and drop out

The explanation in many cases would be demands on their time, eg. they get married, have children, have to hold down a job.

In the most famous case, Kabe (whose moniker has been incorporated now as a verb in the language), he just got fed up with the Esperantists, mainly because of their poor command of the language. However, that was some years ago now, in the early days of the language.

These things are both true. I know people who have gone "dormant" while they have a life, and I know myself that I am frustrated by the generally low level of Esperanto spoken. I stopped attending a certain local Esperanto meeting because it was almost all beginners and I wasn't ready to be quite that generous with my time (I help beginners in other ways, obviously).

But there's another thing - the weird Esperantists. I know a formerly very active Esperantist, excellent speaker, who kabeis; many years later I got in touch with him again and I eventually asked him why. He said that he was sick of the weirdos. I told him, I saw where he was coming from, and I tried to limit my Esperanto time with normal people, so to avoid the weirdos.

It's a very valid point and it's part of the reason why I no longer attend almost any local Esperanto activities at all. Most of the local group members are very nice and there are even several who are relatively normal, but there are a couple of strange individuals who ruin it with their inappropriate behaviour. And for those of you familiar with Pride and Prejudice, I had a Mr. Collins-type situation with one of the locals, so I will not likely be attending ANY local Esperanto event that this individual will be attending (meaning that I will probably not attend any at all, unless I have personally organized it, with a limited guest list)

We have been talking about the E-o movement and it is obvious that many on this forum aren't impressed with it. In your post, you referred to the strange behavior and the "weird Esperantists" you have met at some local events that you have attended.

I have never attended an Esperanto event of any kind. The nearest event that I've ever heard about that was anywhere near me was at St. Louis last year and I just didn't feel up to traveling 350-400 miles in order to attend. I realize that Dallas is having a big event this month and that I could go to it. But again, it is hundreds of miles away and I don't particularly want to put up with the college environment. I'm not as tolerant as I used to be.

Would you care to be more explicit as to the weird behavior I could expect if I ever attend one? I realize that you, as a young woman, are going to encounter different behavior than I would. I'm an older man and I would take a very dim view of anyone making a pass at me.

But I'm guessing that there is a difference between simply inappropriate behavior and the "weird" behavior that you were referring to. If you don't want to answer this, just tell me to go fly a kite and I will shut up. Still... if I ever attend an Esperanto event, I'd like to know whether to bring a baseball bat or my running shoes. Thanks.