mi komprenas nenion; bonvolu paroli esperante au dulingve

tommjames:Leaving aside the non-sequiturs and obvious nonsense concerning racism and genocide, the post does make a point I find hard to refute:

If adopted internationally Esperanto would inevitably come to be an important vehicle of globalization (as the English language has been), it would supplant local languages, particularly those languages which have no literary traditions and it would lead to an erosion of local culture.

No doubt many Esperantists would respond to the above by pointing out that Esperanto only aims to be an auxiliary language, and that it isn't supposed to replace any local languages/culture, but merely to provide a neutral means of bridging the language divide. Well that's all very well if you believe that what Esperanto "aims" or is "supposed" to be would have the primary bearing (or indeed any bearing at all) on what Esperanto actually turned out to be, should the fina venko ever happen. Personally I find that idea impossible to believe, and frankly naive.

English didn't become a supplanter of languages and killer of cultures due to some oppressive ideology at its core. It became a supplanter of languages and killer of cultures because that is a natural result of being the international language. IMO Esperanto's interna ideo would do next to nothing to temper this, and its ease of learning and communicative power relative to English and other languages would probably just augment the detrimental effect on local cultures.

But of course even if all that speculation is true, it doesn't really support the idea the Esperanto movement is racist or genocidal. To me those things relate more to intent and ideological outlook, and in that respect it's clear to me that Esperantists have their heart in the right place.

This. Everything you said is pretty much how I felt reading that thing. One cogent, pertinent point (that many, though certainly not all, Esperantists seem to ignore) amid a torrent of absurd accusations of racism and even genocide.

But there's another thing - the weird Esperantists. I know a formerly very active Esperantist, excellent speaker, who kabeis; many years later I got in touch with him again and I eventually asked him why. He said that he was sick of the weirdos.

Of course, you are right Erinja. It is almost certainly true that this historically has been the reason for some Kabeintoj.

However I am optimistic now about this. I think the Internet is attracting leaners who have had no experience of the 'strangula' element which one has traditionally found in the clubs and congresses.

As these new Esperantists become the norm, the amateur the unprofessional and the just plain cranky will fade away. This will not happen overnight, but there are, I think, indicators that the process of change is under way.

I note with interest the vigour of the responses to my posts in this thread, coming from those who consider that the have no interest in Movada values, only in the language itself.

My point is a simple conceptual one. That even if you are concentrating on the language itself and reject all finvenkisma politics, you are inextricably linking yourself to a politics which have determined the linguistic character of modern Esperanto.

Esperanto simply wouldn't be Esperanto as it is today without the constant application in its evolution of criteria derived from finvenkismo.

Let's take a concrete example. Why was so much attention given to the meaning of sentences like 'Mi promesas, ke mia ŝuldo estos pagita la 9-an de Majo' in the ata/ita debate of the sixties?

Because if Esperanto is to be used in legal agreements (a finvenkismo consideration) it is important to determine whether the debtor has honoured the agreement in paying on the 9th or has undertaken to pay before the 9th.

Furthermore, in all debates on vocabulary extension there has been a constant tension between the twin criteria of international recognisability and the retention of the simplicity the word-building system. Such a tension is almost irrelevant without the view that it is desirable that Esperanto should continue to preserve its essential characteristics as an easily acquired interlingvo - a decidedly finvenkisma consideration.

Why bother to develop Vikipedia, or painstakingly compile the Esperanta Bildvortaro, or the multitudinous specialised terminaroj, if you don't believe that one day Esperanto will be actively applied in commercial, scientific and technical fields?

Why undertake the Herculean labour of the compilation of PMEG or PAG with painstaking reference to authoritative texts, and considered argument for certain preferences, if Esperanto is to be just to be a luda amuzilo?

sudanglo:even if you are concentrating on the language itself and reject all finvenkisma politics, you are inextricably linking yourself to a politics which have determined the linguistic character of modern Esperanto

I really don't think so. This seems like saying I'm inextricably linked to capitalist exploitation because I happen to buy clothes made in Chinese sweatshops. I.e. true, in a very limited way. But kind of sophistic and vacuous at the same time.

Yes it is true that Esperanto is simple and regular because that is what's considered to be required of an easy-to-learn second language, and no doubt many of the people who shaped Esperanto's linguistic character over the years subscribed to finvenkismo. Why does that mean I'm "inextricably linking myself" to that particular strain of thinking?

I use a GNU/Linux operating system, but in what sense am I inextricably linking myself to the free software movement merely by using their product? I'm free to abandon the thing at any time if I wish. A user may know how to operate the thing perfectly well, and it may do everything required of it. Beyond that the user might not even know nor care about the philosophy which gave birth to that product. It's just a means to an end, not a rubber stamp!

michelahado:mi komprenas nenion; bonvolu paroli esperante au dulingve

This forum is for discussions in English. Please visit one of the many forums in Esperanto to have discussions in Esperanto.

Ĉi tiu forumo estas por diskutoj en la angla. Bonvolu viziti unu el la multaj forumoj en Esperanto por diskuti en Esperanto.

quieta:Would you care to be more explicit as to the weird behavior I could expect if I ever attend one? I realize that you, as a young woman, are going to encounter different behavior than I would. I'm an older man and I would take a very dim view of anyone making a pass at me.

First off - I haven't met an Esperanto speaker who struck me as being dangerous, in the sense of "run away". It's more like a person that you just don't want to spend time with. And please understand this in the light that the Esperanto movement is usually pretty friendly and welcoming to all kinds of people, so people are able to find a place in Esperanto who couldn't find a place elsewhere. Esperanto speakers tend to be non-judgmental and trusting, sometimes to a fault (scams in which Esperanto speakers collect money from Esperanto speakers in richer countries, ostensibly for Esperanto purposes - there are many legitimate campaigns of this nature, but there have been scams as well)

Second - you should understand that some of the very best people I know are Esperanto speakers, just wonderful people, and I never would have met them but for Esperanto, so Esperanto really gives you both sides of the spectrum of "wonderfulness".

Having said that, Esperanto has a higher than normal proportion of:
- people who seem to have a difficult time reading social cues. This is a huge one, and I've met so many Esperanto speakers who fit this description in various ways. They may seem normal at first, but then you discover that you drive this person somewhere and you have trouble getting them to stop talking and get out of your car at your destination - in the middle of the night when you want to go home and go to bed. This happened to me. Obviously it doesn't always take the form of someone talkative, could be someone who latches on to you (or your group) and doesn't get the hint that you aren't interested in spending time with them, or all kinds of other things.

- people who have unusual political or philosophical beliefs. These might not be obvious unless you talk with someone at some length. It can be as simple and mundane as a religion you've never heard of, all the way up to a hard-core conspiracy theorist. Sometimes you come away thinking that the person must be crazy. Probably they think the same thing about you, since you disagree with them. Esperanto speakers love sharing their opinions.

- people who are over-the-top supporters of Esperanto, covered in green star clothing, hugely enthusiastic about promoting the language, want to sing "La Espero" at every chance - but often can't speak the language very well, so it ends up being a bit of a negative advertisement for Esperanto (because if it's "so easy", why can't you speak it better?).

- people who dress or act unusually (huge beard, unusual piercings, walk around with a huge walking staff at all times, some kind of unusual nervous tic) - but actually turn out to be perfectly nice, relatively normal people, once you talk to them (except for the way they look). But sometimes these people fall into the conspiracy theorist / unusual philosophy group, so you never really know till you talk to them.

- people who seem never to bathe or wash their clothing (mainly in Europe, never really encountered this in the US, where people are more hygiene-conscious), and who mooch off of free food, even when you're pretty sure that food is no good anymore (like locusts, I tell you!)

- people who have no visible means of financial support, too young to be retired, not visibly disabled, who seem to do not much with their lives, yet somehow they get along (and attend a lot of Esperanto activities). In Europe these people are likely to be on generous government benefits. In the US, I have no idea, disability? Used to work and quit and living on savings?

- people who defy all description till you hear someone describe them. One Esperanto speaker described another Esperanto speaker she once met - he photographed every car he ever drove behind, "just in case". He offered to show her a huge list of photos he'd taken on a long road trip. I couldn't beat that one at the time, but my Mr. Collins experience pretty much trumps anything I've heard, at this point.

Forigite

erinja:
Having said that, Esperanto has a higher than normal proportion of:

Doesn't leave that many Esperantists to speak to

I remember staying with one couple who fit at least 4 of those categories. Months later, i read an article of a native Esperantist who was not taught English at home, as well as a few other happenings. I quickly realized that this was the son of the couple i stayed with!

Thanks for an amusing post, Erinja. Yes, anyone who has been around in the Movement for some time, will recognise what you are talking about. But, as I said, I think things are changing.

Lernu.net and the various possibilities on the Internet for acquiring the language and refining one's expertise are bringing a new class of Esperanto speaker to the party.

I think I read somewhere recently that those of an autistic disposition have a problem in dealing with idiom and metaphor in their own languages.

Esperanto with its overriding literalness and rejection of opaque idiom is obviously attractive to this group. And the gentleman who took photos of every car in front 'just in case' had clearly more than a touch of the Aspergers. Insensitivity to social cues is also a classic marker of this condition.

The solution is in the hands of the Esperantists - simply to stop being so accepting to those who exist at the margin of their societies. To put it another way, to marginalise in Esperantujo those who are already marginalised in their own country.

If such discrimination seems heartless, then the only way to deal with the problem is bring Esperanto into the mainstream so that the stranguloj are just a minority amongst the overwhelming majority of 'normals', just as they are in their own countries.

Now where's my star-studded tee-shirt? It's a sunny day in Ramsgate. I feel like going out and doing some recruiting.

Now where's my star-studded tee-shirt? It's a sunny day in Ramsgate. I feel like going out and doing some recruiting.

Thank you for a good laugh to start my day.