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Difference between ĉi ti- and ti- ĉi

от Aetaris, 14 юни 2012

Съобщения: 13

Език: English

Aetaris (Покажи профила) 14 юни 2012, 18:05:44

Maybe I'm just over looking it, but I haven't been able to find the difference between these.
Can anyone explain this to me?

Hyperboreus (Покажи профила) 14 юни 2012, 18:07:16

Forigite

xdzt (Покажи профила) 14 юни 2012, 19:55:57

Aetaris:Maybe I'm just over looking it, but I haven't been able to find the difference between these.
Can anyone explain this to me?
I'm only a beginner, but my book said there isn't one. I think it's like the difference between 'malnova frukto' and 'frukto malnova' -- ie, there isn't any besides perceived cadence, emphasis, etc.

Tempodivalse (Покажи профила) 17 юни 2012, 03:39:53

Aetaris:Maybe I'm just over looking it, but I haven't been able to find the difference between these.
Can anyone explain this to me?
There is no real difference. "Ĉi tiu knabo estas bona" and "Tiu ĉi knabo estas bona" mean the same thing. Based on my observations, the former appears to be more commonly used nowadays, whereas the latter was far more popular in the Zamenhof era.

However, depending on the surrounding words, I tend to prefer one over the other for the sake of euphony (for instance, "ĉar ĉi tiuj" is a bit of a mouthful, while "ĉar tiuj ĉi" rolls more nicely off the tongue).

darkweasel (Покажи профила) 17 юни 2012, 09:41:00

There are also cases when you have to use one of the two orders to disambiguate:

*Estas tie ĉi tiu knabino doesn’t work, it could mean "that girl is here" or "this girl is there" as it is unclear what ĉi refers to. To disambiguate, use estas ĉi tie tiu knabino or estas tie tiu ĉi knabino. Or just put the verb into the second position ... okulumo.gif

sudanglo (Покажи профила) 17 юни 2012, 11:05:04

Searching post 1960 works in the Tekstaro corpus throws up many more hits for ĉi tie (almost 700) than tie ĉi (51).

A seach on later works also throws up more hits for ĉi tiel (27) - only 4 hits for tiel ĉi.

Tempodivalse (Покажи профила) 17 юни 2012, 19:32:51

sudanglo:Searching post 1960 works in the Tekstaro corpus throws up many more hits for ĉi tie (almost 700) than tie ĉi (51).

A seach on later works also throws up more hits for ĉi tiel (27) - only 4 hits for tiel ĉi.
On a somewhat-related note, does anyone think there's an advantage to using a dash to connect "ĉi" to the correlative (tiu-ĉi, ĉi-tial, etc)? Some sources I've seen say that this is superfluous and should be avoided, but I see it occasionally in old texts. It seems mildly useful in ambiguous cases like the one Darkweasel presented.

darkweasel (Покажи профила) 17 юни 2012, 20:04:19

Tempodivalse:
On a somewhat-related note, does anyone think there's an advantage to using a dash to connect "ĉi" to the correlative (tiu-ĉi, ĉi-tial, etc)? Some sources I've seen say that this is superfluous and should be avoided, but I see it occasionally in old texts.
Actually it is an error (albeit frequent) and nothing more.

erinja (Покажи профила) 18 юни 2012, 00:47:30

ĉi should *only* be linked to something when a hyphen when you're linking it to an adverb (like "ĉi-somere")

Linking ĉi with a hyphen is wrong in every other circumstance (so we say "ĉi somero", no hyphen, but "ĉi-somere", hyphen with adverb)

There's a grammatical reason for this, it isn't arbitrary, but it's probably not necessary to go through that detail here right now.

darkweasel (Покажи профила) 18 юни 2012, 05:47:09

erinja:ĉi should *only* be linked to something when a hyphen when you're linking it to an adverb (like "ĉi-somere")
... or adjective (ĉi-somera renkontiĝo, ĉi-tiea supervendejo).

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