Mesaĝoj: 82
Lingvo: English
RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-14 18:14:00
Tempodivalse:...meaning they can't have an opinion of it, positive or negative.Oh, you are so wrong on this point. You better believe they can have opinions about it. I have met so many people, young, old, and in-between, who knew absolutely nothing at all about Esperanto, but have displayed amazingly strong opinions about it, formed like magic the moment they heard about it for the very first time (which may have been just a minute ago - surprisingly, that doesn't seem to matter).
It can't possibly work.
It is a failed project.
At best it can only be cold and emotionless.
It's communist.
No one speaks it.
Etc.
The amazing thing about these opinions is that they tend to be unlearned. No one generally put these ideas into peoples heads; they simply sprang fully-formed from the brow of Zeus, or whatever. They're "obvious". Wrong, of course. But obvious, nonetheless.
Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-14 18:44:32
Tempodivalse (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-15 01:35:20
Oh, you are so wrong on this point. You better believe they can have opinions about it. I have met so many people, young, old, and in-between, who knew absolutely nothing at all about Esperanto, but have displayed amazingly strong opinions about it, formed like magic the moment they heard about it for the very first time (which may have been just a minute ago - surprisingly, that doesn't seem to matter).I think you misunderstood me; I said that, prior to an individual having heard of Esperanto or knowing anything at all about it - not even the name itself - the individual is in a state of complete ignorance and consequently cannot have an opinion.
Maybe that is a pedantic distinction, but it seems increasingly relevant. Many people, especially young people, seem to honestly have no idea what Esperanto is, or say - "I heard it somewhere but I don't know what or who it is". This kind of total ignorance seems to be a whole different ball game from old negative stereotypes.
I do agree with you that, after people have acquired some minimal (perhaps faulty) information about Esperanto, they often tend to form negative stereotypes about it. This, to me, is an indication that those people are small-minded and fickle and we shouldn't care what they think about, pace sudanglo.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-15 10:51:54
Only in an environment where attitudes to Esperanto (or the concept of an purpose-designed language as a lingua franca) are favourable can we hope for the wide-spread teaching of Esperanto in the schools - which seems to me the only route by which we can boost the number of speakers from 2 million to, say, 50 million, and thereby realise the full practical potential of Esperanto.
And if you suppose that the general public's attitude is not going to be influenced by the sort of people they have met (or are aware of) who have declared an interest in the language, then you are not being very realistic.
By the way, it may not be necessary to mention Esperanto at all in our propaganda.
The battle to be won is not actually Esperanto versus some other con-lang. It is a national language (eg English) versus a language specifically designed for international use.
Once you get people to accept that a purpose-designed language is better, then the choice of Esperanto (as almost undisputed leader in the field) is obvious.
Alkanadi (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-15 14:03:56
sudanglo:The reason why we should care about public attitudes towards Esperanto is obvious.Don't stress yourself out about it. All groups that have an ideological leaning tend to be obsessed over their image, which causes them to be stressed out. At the end of the day, the stress isn't worth it.
Once you get people to accept that a purpose-designed language is better, then the choice of Esperanto (as almost undisputed leader in the field) is obvious.Good idea. We could just say "there should be an international language". Then, if they accept that, they will naturally choose Esperanto because it is the biggest and most well suited.
Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-15 15:39:20
There is this delusional attitude that if it is supposed to happen, it will happen. Like some kind of supernatural force. Things like this need work. English hasn't merely been spread by accident. Before WW2 Britain actively promoted English in a large Empire; after WW2 the U.S. has promoted American English in a similar way.
Changing attitudes starts with not being afraid to speak about something, and most of all treating it as something just as ordinary and equally valid as anything else that might compete for space. Relying upon whether there will some sort of passive acceptance based upon 'common sense' is a dead-end. If that sort of thing worked half the world wouldn't be under the sway of stupid ideas.
Tempodivalse (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-15 17:34:46
I don't think Sudanglo is "stressing out". It's pretty exasperating to listen to the people who are happy to keep Esperanto as some obscure little hobby because they are afraid, yes afraid, of being seen as preachers or, worse still, oddball zealots.Well, there are other possibilities. I don't consider myself "afraid" that others will find out about my Esperanto; I'm quite open and relaxed about it. For me, it is simply a question of having different values (the old Raumism vs Finvenkism split). I think we need to remember that not all Esperantophones learned the language for the same reasons; In my case, I can better enjoy Esperanto when ulterior goals are off the table.
I happen to find finvenkism, on the whole, rather naive. But you don't have to agree with that view to appreciate that not every Esperantophone cares about propagandising the language - some are content with appreciating it for its own value (rather like speakers of diasporic languages). If more people want to join - that's great! If not - well, that's their loss. Why does everything have to revolve around goals, objectives, strivations.
What I do object to, however, is sudanglo's suggestion that "strange" people - whatever that means - self-censor and hide and try to fit into the worldview of small-minded, fickle people. I took the old Aesop parable of the donkey, the old father and the son to heart a long time ago - "try to please all, and you end up pleasing none."
Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-15 18:16:30
Is the 'raumism v finvenkism' split anything more than one group sitting back and saying 'well...that failed, lets just sit back now and curate the museum of Esperanto for the few...'?
A language, especially one specifically devised for world communication, needs more than a few tin-pot grammar obsessives squabbling on forums, it needs exposure. There's no crazed ideological undertone to promoting a language, at least there shouldn't have to be.
Tempodivalse (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-15 18:55:16
I'm sure you enjoy speaking to virtually nobody and never doing the same things with Esperanto that can be done with other languages.Well, what do you mean by "virtually nobody"? There are at least a few tens of thousands of Esperantists in the world. I'm quite content with that, at all. Certainly much less than with other languages, but I'm probably not going to speak with every single speaker anyway. There is substantial diversity already, even if most of it is accessible only via the Internet (which is not a problem for me).
Is the 'raumism v finvenkism' split anything more than one group sitting back and saying 'well...that failed, lets just sit back now and curate the museum of Esperanto for the few...'?I think you fail to appreciate that some Esperantophones like myself have a different set of assumptions from the outset, under which the notions of "success" or "failure" are unimportant. I think the essence of Raumism is appreciating Esperanto as an end in itself, rather than instrumentally, as a means to other ends. I engage with Esperanto for my own personal growth and enjoyment; I started learning it for its aesthetic simplicity and expressiveness, and for the small but intellectually diverse community (and literature) that already exists.
Of course, if you look at Esperanto as something instrumental, then it is safe to say it's been a failure so far, relative to English. And I'm okay with that. Now, would it be nice if Esperanto suddenly gained massive international support and had a billion speakers? I think so; I'm not disputing that.
I merely question whether it is worthwhile to try or hope for such an outcome, or to make such an outcome the focus of our time in Esperantujo. For me, doing so would take all the fun out of Esperanto. But if you feel differently and want to go spread Esperanto - more power to you! It's all part of the community's diversity
Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-15 19:01:02
Tempodivalse:Now, would it be nice if Esperanto suddenly gained massive international support and had a billion speakers? I think so; I'm not disputing that. I merely question whether it is worthwhile to try or hope to bring about out such an outcome, or make such an outcome the focus of our time in Esperantujo.That is just self-defeating, and probably a contradictory statement. You think it would be great if the language gained widespread traction, but don't think it is worthwhile to try or even hope?
Nonsense on stilts.