sudanglo:The difference between the idea that all are welcome to learn Esperanto and Raŭmismo, is that this explicitly rejects the idea of any sort of fina venko, and positively advocates turning inward and ignoring the world.

I don't see anything mutually exclusive between "all are welcome to learn EO" and "I'm not interested in promoting/propagandising EO". I als suspect that for many Raumists, it is not so much a positive rejection as indifference or disinterest.

sudanglo:If the early Esperantists had all been Raŭmists, the language wouldn't be where it is today.

Perhaps; but things have changed over 120 years. The community is quite stable now, and has been since 1905 (with natural low points during the two world wars).

sudanglo:There is in any case an inherent contradiction between concentrating on developing Esperanto's own culture and at the same time ignoring an important part of it.

Perhaps the simplest way to express my position is: I really don't care much about trying to bring about the fina venko, for various reasons (its improbability being one). It's not a priority for me and there are other things I would rather do with my time.

I don't see a contradiction between that and valuing Esperanto as it already is. If someone else wants to go forth and spread the word, go right ahead! with no judgment from me.

Look, if I see some of my acquaintances take up Esperanto seriously, I will be quite pleased. But they have to "come to Esperanto" themselves, rather than my trying to make them. I don't think most people will suddenly snatch up a lernolibro even if you can convince them that EO is serious and the best solution for a worldwide lingua franca.

People often (or even normally) base their actions and beliefs on things other than rational argumentation - emotions, practicality, what's the norm in the culture, tradition, etc. If this were not the case, people would not have all sorts of silly (or even dangerous) political and social views.

sudanglo:The difference between the idea that all are welcome to learn Esperanto and Raŭmismo, is that this explicitly rejects the idea of any sort of fina venko, and positively advocates turning inward and ignoring the world.

I'm not sure why you think so. And the idea that Raumism was only invented in the 80's -- that's when it got a name but I'm sure the sentiment has been around much longer. There have always been people in any interest group who are interested in doing the interest but not so interested in promoting it. I'm sure every stamp club has the ones who are interested in promoting philately at their local community event, and others who are content simply to occupy themselves with collecting stamps in their free time, without writing pro-stamp articles to local newspapers, staffing booths at expositions, or telling all their friends how great stamps are.

In my world, there's lots of room for all kinds of people in Esperanto -- both for one who dresses all in green and promotes Esperanto every chance he gets (the world would think we were insane if the majority of Esperantists were as finvenkist as that), and also for the one who is quiet about her interest but writes and translates to create new works of Esperanto literature or music, and of course for most of us who fall somewhere in between those two extremes. We could do with less putting down of people who place a different emphasis than us. People of all persuasions benefit when someone who emphasizes publicity for Esperanto is able to encourage more people to learn the language or join a club, and people of all persuasions also benefit when someone whose focus is on developing the community and its literature is able to write a book or organize a music festival for everyone to enjoy. We are too small a population to be putting each other down for these minor differences in opinion. You don't want to go around loudly promoting Esperanto? Fine, so don't sign up to staff a table at your local event. You don't want to emphasize the culture and the community? Fine, so go staff a table instead of staying home writing a book or an essay.

William Auld is one of Esperanto's great writers, yet most people in the small town where he lived had no idea he existed or what language he spoke; he was a quiet and modest person, and though he was nominated for the Nobel Prize, his local library nearly left him out of an exhibition of authors in the region because they didn't know he existed. I can't assign any 'political' beliefs to Auld but certainly if he was a person who vocally trumpeted Esperanto, the inhabitants of his small town (population: fewer than 3000, smaller than my high school!) might have been aware of his accomplishments. Can we possibly put him down for not being vocal enough about Esperanto, when we can all enjoy his writings?

The only thing Raumism positively promotes is the idea that Esperanto has value today, not just in some imagined future. Raumism is not inward turning, it simply isn't outward turning. The "you're either with us or against us" idea that not actively promoting something is the same thing as hindering it is patently ridiculous. Sudanglo's description of Raumism appears to me to be emotionally biased rather than objectively based.

Give me 50 million Raumists with fluent Esperanto and I'll never have another word to say against them.

Of course the absurdity is that the existence of 50 mllion raumist Esperantists would fly directly in the face of their fundamental tenet that Esperanto never will be a practical solution to the Babel problem and that its pracelo should be rejected as 'ne-esenca'.

RiotNrrd:The only thing Raumism positively promotes is the idea that Esperanto has value today, not just in some imagined future. Raumism is not inward turning, it simply isn't outward turning. The "you're either with us or against us" idea that not actively promoting something is the same thing as hindering it is patently ridiculous. Sudanglo's description of Raumism appears to me to be emotionally biased rather than objectively based.

Really? It seems to me that Esperanto in the hands of Raumists just stays more-or-less where it is. In another 25 years it will have the same reputation of 'language for hobbyists' locked into the same circles.
Perhaps that would also be the fate if every Esperantist was an active promoter, but that would be the result after having at least tried to promote the language for what is designed to do rather than keeping it in the Esperantujo theme park.

Subcultures stay as subcultures when they aren't 'normalised' by being actively promoted as part of the norm.

Vestitor:Subcultures stay as subcultures when they aren't 'normalised' by being actively promoted as part of the norm.

Interesting point. So how does a subculture get normalized?

sudanglo:Give me 50 million Raumists with fluent Esperanto and I'll never have another word to say against them.

This is a bit silly, you could easily say "Give me 50 million finvenkists with fluent Esperanto and the Raumists will never have another word to say against them".

Or are you going to claim that Raumists have somehow undermined the finvenkist cause by writing literature for us to read and music for us to listen to, versus walking around handing out propaganda leaflets about how Esperanto solves all your problems?

erinja:

sudanglo:Give me 50 million Raumists with fluent Esperanto and I'll never have another word to say against them.

...Or are you going to claim that Raumists have somehow undermined the finvenkist cause by writing literature for us to read and music for us to listen to, versus walking around handing out propaganda leaflets about how Esperanto solves all your problems?

I guess when you think about it, it was the ideological people that created the most success for Esperanto.

Alkanadi:

erinja:

sudanglo:Give me 50 million Raumists with fluent Esperanto and I'll never have another word to say against them.

...Or are you going to claim that Raumists have somehow undermined the finvenkist cause by writing literature for us to read and music for us to listen to, versus walking around handing out propaganda leaflets about how Esperanto solves all your problems?

I guess when you think about it, it was the ideological people that created the most success for Esperanto.

I might challenge that. Of course at the beginning you had Zamenhof, the progenitor of the whole thing, but since Boulogne in 1905 the community has been quite stable and in no real need of proselytising to keep from dying out. In fact, the less propagandising Esperantophones like William Auld seem to have made the most lasting impact on literature.

I think Esperantujo is largely self-selecting. In other words, only those with a certain intellectual curiosity or "differentness" will be drawn to it. This was true from the early days, I suspect.

This is because, even if you can convince your average Joe or Bob in a conversation that solving the world's Babel problem is important and Esperanto is the best way to solve it, I doubt he'll go out and learn much of it. He simply doesn't care; he's got other things on his mind; this is a low priority. So a lot of the promotion that goes out by finvenkists really misses the mark. It is unrealistic in its assumption that people respond just to rational argumentation.

How do languages spread globally? Usually by force - if not overt conquering or colonialisation (as in the case of the Conquistadors or the British Empire), then by economic domination and force (United States, and more recently China). It doesn't involve a rational process of: "OK, English would make a good world language, and here's why".

The reactions I've gotten have run the gamut of "That's über cool" to "Isn't that Klingon for dummies?"