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Obsolete loanwords

kelle poolt logixoul, 27. august 2005

Postitused: 83

Keel: English

trojo (Näita profiili) 26. märts 2008 4:50.32

pacepacapaco:I was reading through and noticed that somebody brought up use of "malunua" for "fina" or "lasta" or something. I've just assumed that the prefix "mal-" is used to make numbers negative, so that "malunu" would be "negative one."
I think negativa is the usual way. Or there's always the preposition minus. Personally when I see "-2" for example in an Esperanto text, I think minus du.

Although I guess maldu would be logical also.

erinja (Näita profiili) 26. märts 2008 13:25.47

I don't really think of numbers as having opposites. I wouldn't use mal- appended to a number, since it doesn't make sense to me. Not every word can have mal- added to it and come up with something that makes sense. Not every thing has an opposite, and "mal- something" has a different meaning than "not something" or "negative something".

lordmayors (Näita profiili) 26. märts 2008 23:32.22

I think while making some words that have easily recognized opposites, like malfermita,
is good, doing that too much is doubleplusungood

Taciturn_ (Näita profiili) 27. märts 2008 13:24.07

IN mathimatics thr r positive and negative numbers so they exist.

Filu (Näita profiili) 27. märts 2008 14:45.31

erinja:I don't really think of numbers as having opposites. I wouldn't use mal- appended to a number, since it doesn't make sense to me. Not every word can have mal- added to it and come up with something that makes sense. Not every thing has an opposite, and "mal- something" has a different meaning than "not something" or "negative something".
Speaking of the possibilities of using "mal-", any idea why is it not accepted to use it with the tables of correlatives?

"Maltiu" could mean "any other than this one", but it is not only disgraceful (maybe my opinion about it is what it is because it is never used, though...), but also generally not accepted...

Maybe because of the natural opposition between "ĉi-" and "neni-", which people don't want to see turn into "malĉiel" and "malneniom"?????? demando.gif

mnlg (Näita profiili) 27. märts 2008 15:21.07

The opposite of a positive universal is a negative universal, so, in my opinion, "malĉiam" could, theoretically, be used for "neniam" (and the same goes for ĉie, ĉio, etc), unless I find a compelling reason to do otherwise. (Anyway I am going to keep using neni= ridulo.gif.

However with "tiu" the situation is different and your translation wouldn't be accurate. What would "the opposite of that one" mean? The opposite of the element I am pointing to, or the opposite of the act of determining that element (that is, avoiding the determination itself, or determining every other element except that one, or claiming that any other element, except that one, is to be considered potentially determined)?

The prefix mal- is very useful and I like to experiment with it at times, but it occasionally lends itself to some weird behavior. For example, a friend of mine, when using IRC a few years ago, adopted the nickname "malulo", which is quite a mind-bending word (the embodiment of opposition, or the opposite of an individual?).

Filu (Näita profiili) 27. märts 2008 19:01.24

mnlg:The opposite of a positive universal is a negative universal, so, in my opinion, "malĉiam" could, theoretically, be used for "neniam" (and the same goes for ĉie, ĉio, etc), unless I find a compelling reason to do otherwise. (Anyway I am going to keep using neni= ridulo.gif.
So shall I!
mnlg:However with "tiu" the situation is different and your translation wouldn't be accurate. What would "the opposite of that one" mean? The opposite of the element I am pointing to, or the opposite of the act of determining that element (that is, (1) avoiding the determination itself, or (2) determining every other element except that one, or (3) claiming that any other element, except that one, is to be considered potentially determined)?
Yeah! Fair enough! I feel that the one I marked with (3) should be "ne tiu" and therefore not be considered as a potential meaning of "maltiu", but from your versions 1 and 2, I now perceive how it could be ambiguous: would it be "malti/u" or "mal/tiu"?

I can't quite remember what the official position is regarding the tables of correlatives... Are "i-", "ti-", "ki-", "ĉi-" and "neni-" considered to be prefixes (whose usage is limited to correlative) or were they only designed in a consistant manner to facilitate their assimilation (in which case any correlative would be an undividable root on its own)???

I feel that the ambiguation, persistant in the former case, could be lifted in the latter case, couldn't it? ("mal/tiu" ► any that is not this one).

Oh well! This is not a form I like anyway, why do I keep at it???
mnlg:[...] a friend of mine, when using IRC a few years ago, adopted the nickname "malulo", which is quite a mind-bending word (the embodiment of opposition, or the opposite of an individual?).
Ha ha ha!

mnlg (Näita profiili) 27. märts 2008 20:16.25

Filu:would it be "malti/u" or "mal/tiu"?
mal/tiu.

The correlative words are, as you correctly say, undividable roots. That's the same reason why you can't say, for instance, "alies", meaning "someone else's". You can't use =es as a prefix, as you would use, say, -ec- or -um- or -ind-; =es is not a prefix: it is a part of a correlative word, and that's its whole scope. (Can you imagine having words like "tutam" or "nenicerte" or "i-ec-es" lying around? The horror, the horror!)

(as for alies, if you need something like that you can of course say aliies (double i) or, even better, aliul/a, which has the advantage of being declinable).
"mal/tiu" ► any that is not this one
I still can't find a proper way to translate "maltiu", but if I were really pressed to give one, I would perhaps say "everyone but that one".

Filu (Näita profiili) 28. märts 2008 13:15.38

Dear mnlg,
I understand that "i-ar-ec-om" would be rather confusing (uh... totally horrific, I mean), but is it possible to say something like:
Mi ŝatas Esperanton kaj ties neniesecon.
demando.gif

mnlg (Näita profiili) 28. märts 2008 13:43.54

Yes. As long as you use whole correlatives, you can treat them as any other word. Perhaps the most known is "malkiel", meaning more or less "unlike" as in, for instance,

Malkiel vi, mi ŝatas ĉokoladon.

"To fall into nothingness" would be correctly translated as "fali en nenioecon", however the (grammatically incorrect) form "nenieco" can sometimes be seen. I can concede that it flows better, but I won't be swayed by that! ridulo.gif

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