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R, RR?

de Bruso, 2012-julio-18

Mesaĝoj: 11

Lingvo: English

Bruso (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-18 14:52:40

I have seen that a "flap" is considered the normal rhotic sound in Esperanto.

So then is "rr" (as in Interreto or Superrigardo) trilled?

What if a speaker normally trills a single-r? Then what is double-r? Or is trilling a single-r just plain wrong?

Kirilo81 (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-18 16:11:36

Where did you see this?
The normal pronounciation of r is a trill [r], rr is just a long trill [r:], I've never encountered anyone regularly pronouncing r as [ɾ] nor read this in a grammar.

Bruso (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-18 16:30:31

Jordan's "Being Colloquial" says that "the flap seems to be preferred by most speakers who notice a difference."

If you search on the word "flap" here on lernu you'll see a lot of threads recommending a flap.

Kirilo81 (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-18 16:42:10

Wow, interesting.
So my question to the proficient speakers of Esperanto here (especially with English and Spanish as mother tongue): Do you pronounce oro as Italian ['ᴐrᴐ] (like here) or as Spanish ['ᴐɾᴐ] (like here, especially the second one)?
Maybe I just encounter the wrong people. okulumo.gif

Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-18 21:58:46

Kirilo81:Wow, interesting.
So my question to the proficient speakers of Esperanto here (especially with English and Spanish as mother tongue): Do you pronounce oro as Italian ['ᴐrᴐ] (like here) or as Spanish ['ᴐɾᴐ] (like here, especially the second one)?
Maybe I just encounter the wrong people. okulumo.gif
A few of those Spanish Rs sound like they have a touch of 'L' in them, or am I mistaken? Maybe it's just because I was straining my ears in an attempt to work out the difference between them and the Italian version?! The Italian R seems very clear and I would say good for Esperanto.

Evildela (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-18 21:59:05

As only having English as my native language, it took me as year to learn the flap, and I have been unable to learn the trill, so my Esperanto uses flaps, however I would LOVE to be able to use trills

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-18 23:35:35

I tend to flap a single r and trill a double r.

I was never aware that there was a difference between a Spanish r and an Italian r. Since Esperanto is spoken by people all over, we don't normally get so specific as to recommend such fine a detail as a particular IPA r symbol for the pronunciation.

If you can flap or trill an r, you're good to go, because those are the preferred pronunciations. I hear all kinds of r's among fluent Esperanto speakers. Some of them are more pleasing to the ear than others but none of them are technically wrong (even an American r is technically not wrong).

tomasdeaquino (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-19 01:27:20

Chainy:
Kirilo81:Wow, interesting.
So my question to the proficient speakers of Esperanto here (especially with English and Spanish as mother tongue): Do you pronounce oro as Italian ['ᴐrᴐ] (like here) or as Spanish ['ᴐɾᴐ] (like here, especially the second one)?
Maybe I just encounter the wrong people. okulumo.gif
A few of those Spanish Rs sound like they have a touch of 'L' in them, or am I mistaken? Maybe it's just because I was straining my ears in an attempt to work out the difference between them and the Italian version?! The Italian R seems very clear and I would say good for Esperanto.
In some Spanish speaking countries, to make children learn to distinguish the pronunciation of "R" and the double "R" or RR, make them repeat the following refrain:"R con R = cigarro, R con R = barril, rápido corren los carros en la vía del ferrocarril".So it is very important in spanish note the diference, In fact in the past in the Spanish alphabet was the R and Double R or RR as a separate letter, and there was a double LL and L, all that was removed a few years ago by the Royal Spanish Academy of Language.

Kirilo81 (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-19 07:39:53

In itself it is consistent to pronounce single r as flap [ɾ] and double rr as trill [r] as in Spanish, but I see two problems with this (of course, if the trill is difficult for one to pronounce, there's nothing one can do):

-there may be confusion encountering people who speak r as [r] and rr as [r:], as the phone [r] is used in such a situation for two different sounds, r and rr;

-it is incoherent with the overall phonetic system of Esperanto: It makes no difference whether you pronounce l as [l] (alveolar) or [L] (velar), an ll is just a long [l:] or [L:], same with m, n, s and, mutatis mutandis, all other consonants.
But in the variant [ɾ] - [r], [r] is not just not a long consonant, it's even a different kind of sound than [ɾ] (because of the Spanish orthography we tend to see it just as kind of R, but, as Chainy wrote, phonetically it is the same as close to velar [l], or even [d] - all velar oral sounds -, and other languages may write its flap as l and d, in fact).

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2012-julio-19 07:45:25

If there is a clear difference in the pronunciation of double rr (Inter-reto) in careful speech, then there doesn't seem to be a good reason for the method employed to be different to that used for the differentiation of double l (mallumo) or double n (Finno) - namely one pauses slightly before beginning the pronunciation of the second consonant, or lingers over the consonant.

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