I have recently published new editions of Donald Broadribb's splendid translation of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There by Lewis Carroll. These are corrected editions, both edited by Patrick Wynne and corrected by the author.

Vidu evertype.com/books/alice-eo-broadribb.html kaj evertype.com/books/looking-glass-eo-broadribb.html

SPX:I've always thought of Esperanto as something that has essentially remained unchanged except for the addition of new words, and that it is something of a principle behind the language that what Zamenhof set forth is set in stone since a) he pretty much closed to door to any revisions when he was alive, and b) allowing the language to change will eventually lead to the same kind of confusion that we see in national languages.

There have been no changes to the grammar since Zamenhof's time.

However, Zamenhof left a lot of leeway for alternative usages, and the movements between which usages are customary are what we're talking about here.

For example, "estas [root]ita" can (often, with some caveats) be expressed as "[root]iĝas". In the early days the former was standard usage. Today, the latter is becoming more common.[1]

Another example. "Estas [adjective]" can (often, with some caveats) be converted to "[adjective root]as". In the early days the former was standard usage. Today, the latter is becoming more common.[1]

As mentioned, "ci" has fallen out of favor. I don't think it was ever actually IN favor in a widespread sense, but really, anyone who uses it now is simply adopting an annoying affectation.[2] Early on, it wasn't thus.

And so on.

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[1] Those whose immediate reaction to that statement is "But, that's not the most common usage" are not paying attention to what I wrote.

[2] If your reaction to THAT statement is "But *I* use 'ci', and it is NOT an annoying affectation", then you are pretty much deluding yourself.

jchthys:

patrik:My picks:
Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead and Anthem
Works of Yukio Mishima
Heike Monogatari (The Tale of Heike)
Shusaku Endo - Chinmoku (Silence)
Friedrich Hayek - The Road to Serfdom
Rene Girard - I Saw Satan Fall like Lightning
Max Scheler - Ressentiment
Antoine de Saint-Exupery - Wind, Sand and Stars
Mozi - Mozi

I had forgotten that I'd seen Anthem in Esperanto online. Jen ligilo.

But it's atrocious! It suffers from bad grammar and mistranslations! "Nedireblaj Fojoj" for "Unspeakable Times"?! >_<

In the case of "ci", it has existed from the very beginning, but also from the beginning, Zamenhof recommended not to use it. I wouldn't say that it has fallen out of use - it was never really in use, and anyone who uses it sounds horribly affected.

SPX:That's very interesting. I would have just expected anything to come out of a professional publishing house to have been properly edited and revised by a competent and fluent (or at least near-fluent) Esperantist.

Remember that most Esperanto works are the equivalent of self-published, so most things don't really come from a true publishing house.

Most things that are published are edited enough that they aren't full of glaring grammatical errors etc. But that doesn't mean that the style is good, or that the text is generally well-written.

With the small press runs, Esperanto works are not very cheap, and adding true professionalism to it, with professional editors, high quality cover graphics, etc, would push the cost even higher.

SPX:Hmm, if they couldn't improve upon the original, I wonder why they took the time to re-translate the book.

No one likes to think that their work is crap. Why do film producers re-make movies, then the re-make isn't as good as the original? No one intentionally makes a translation of poorer quality, but sometimes one person just isn't as talented as another, and doesn't necessarily realize it.

SPX:So of course I know you can't get a definitive answer on this, but with regular study, how long do you think it would take someone to get to the level of being able to do a good, competent, worthwhile Esperanto translation?

That's really impossible to answer. It depends on your natural talent for languages, it depends on your natural talent for use of language (translation style etc), it depends on how much reading you've done in Esperanto, and how good you are at noticing turns of phrase. I have a feeling that it has a lot to do with how good a writer you are in your native language. A bad writer in their native language isn't likely to magically become a brilliant writer in a second language, in my opinion.

I think that practice makes perfect so if your goal is to do translation, you should start it as early as possible. Read a lot to develop an ear for style, and write a lot, translate a lot of small things to get practice, and ask for feedback from others.

RiotNrrd:[1] Those whose immediate reaction to that statement is "But, that's not the most common usage" are not paying attention to what I wrote.

The 'caveats', as you put it, are rather significant ones, though, so it might be better not to wade in with such iffy examples for people just starting off in Esperanto!

erinja:In the case of "ci", it has existed from the very beginning, but also from the beginning, Zamenhof recommended not to use it.

I have to wonder, then, why he even bothered to incorporate it into the language.

erinja:Remember that most Esperanto works are the equivalent of self-published, so most things don't really come from a true publishing house.

Most things that are published are edited enough that they aren't full of glaring grammatical errors etc. But that doesn't mean that the style is good, or that the text is generally well-written.

I guess I would think that, at least in the case of publishers like Mondial, if they don't have the time or resources to do an extensive editing job, then they would at least separate the wheat from the chaff by choosing to simply not publish those works that are not up to par. So they would maintain a high-quality catalog by keeping a close eye on who gets through the gates, as it were.

erinja:No one likes to think that their work is crap. Why do film producers re-make movies, then the re-make isn't as good as the original? No one intentionally makes a translation of poorer quality, but sometimes one person just isn't as talented as another, and doesn't necessarily realize it.

That's a good point. The movie analogy is a good one.

erinja:
I think that practice makes perfect so if your goal is to do translation, you should start it as early as possible.

I've been working on this:

http://www.lonweb.org/daisy/templates/0-ds-The_Sea...

It's slow going, since I'm a beginner. But it's definitely a helpful exercise for learning the language. Once I get done with it I was hoping some of you guys could help point out what's good and where I've gone wrong.

My goal, once it's in proper form, is to submit it to their website so that one day it can help someone else. (They are woefully deficient on Esperanto material.)

erinja:Read a lot to develop an ear for style. . .

What authors would you suggest for this purpose?

Chainy:The 'caveats', as you put it, are rather significant ones, though, so it might be better not to wade in with such iffy examples for people just starting off in Esperanto!

OK.

What are your "non-iffy" examples?

SPX:

erinja:Read a lot to develop an ear for style. . .

What authors would you suggest for this purpose?

I'm not extremely well-read in Esperanto literature, as it happens. But the more you read, period, the more you develop your ear for what does or doesn't sound good. Auld is a big one to read. A work like "La Farono", translated from the original Polish by Kabe (Kazimierz Bein), was key in the early development of Esperanto style, and though Kabe perhaps made some choices that wouldn't have been made today, it might give you a good idea of classical style.

I think Sten Johansson's books are a very good example of a very clear writing style without excessive use of complicated grammatical forms (but still getting across complex thoughts, without complex constructions). I liked Denaska kongresano as an example of a story that gives a bit of an insight into Esperanto culture.

You might want to buy a copy or two of the Beletra Almanako (Literature Almanac) - it's published by Mondial, I think, and available from Mondial, book services, and Amazon. It's compiled and edited by some eminent Esperantists, so everything in there should be high quality. It's a mix of poetry, fiction, non-fiction, essays, etc. I think there have been perhaps a dozen or so editions, so you could perhaps find a list or them and buy one or two that had contents that might interest you specially. The contents are written by writers from all over the world. Amazon's "look inside" preview will show you the tables of contents, so you can use that to help you choose one.

Some significant authors from the past are Kalman Kalocsay, Julio Baghy ("Estas mi esperantisto" is a popular poem of his, especially among beginners, because the grammar is easy). William Auld.

Marjorie Boulton is a significant poet who is still alive (though now elderly and in poor health, as I understand it).

"Marvirinstrato" is a book by a young (young in Esperanto terms) American writer, Tim Westover. It was published a couple of years ago, and was very well received. I think the online version is free and a paper copy is available for purchase. Kroatmilita Noktolibro by Spomenka Stimec is a popular and interesting personal account of the breakup of Yugoslavia, from the viewpoint of a Croatian. The title, "noktolibro", is a small play on words; a "taglibro", literally "day book" is the Esperanto word for diary, but since Spomenka mainly wrote her journal at night during air raids, she called it a "night book" instead. What I found to be one of the most interesting and discouraging aspects of her book were her descriptions of some aspects of the Esperanto movement in post-war Croatia, and moves to purge "Serbian content" from their Esperanto textbooks, so that the language would be "pure" Croatian. You might think that Esperanto speakers would be above excessive nationalism, but you'd be wrong. The book isn't suitable for beginners in the sense that it isn't easy reading, and I've met more than one beginner who bought it, excited to read it, then found it too hard. I'd encourage you to start out with free stuff online while you build up your skills, unless you want to be spending money on books that you can't read yet - which would be incredibly frustrating and discouraging, I think.

Wikipedia's article on Esperanto literature has a list of significant authors, some of whom are still alive and active; perhaps you should look at those names and then look at the literature archive that I link to below, and find some of their work.

This online literature archive is old-fashioned in format (the site has not changed much since it was started in the mid 90's, and the creator has unfortunately since died) but the contents are still a treasure trove of information. You might try the collected works of the Nica Literatura Revuo; anything from that publication should be well-edited by eminent writers of the time.

If you have a serious interest in literature, I recommend purchasing "Concise Encyclopedia of the Original Literature of Esperanto", by Geoffrey Sutton. It has excellent information on the history of Esperanto literature, significant authors, various schools of literature (Scottish school, Hungarian school, etc), and other information. And it's in English so you can read it today. It's not that cheap but Esperanto-related books are hardly every very cheap, and the quality is very high.

Awesome! That's a ton of info.

I at least know where to get started now. . .

One of the nice things about Lewis Carroll is that the story is familiar, so the reader can enjoy the wordplay with a familiar text.