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Correct usage -ant and si

od EldanarLambetur, 4. augusta 2012

Príspevky: 16

Jazyk: English

sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 5. augusta 2012 23:54:24

I'm not suggesting a new rule HB, merely that in a particular context where you might be misunderstood, and an 'illegal' sia helps to convey the required meaning, then it is perhaps not too grievous a sin to break the rules.

I believe that Zamenhof himself occasionally used lia or ŝia or ĝia when the rules say you should use sia, because it made the sentence clearer.

sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 6. augusta 2012 0:01:22

From NPIV: perdi la saĝonZ, sian feliĉonZ; mi perdis la okupon en la kudrejoZ; perdi influon, forton, la kuraĝonZ, la konscionZ; perdi ies favoronB, konfidonG; ŝi perdis sian fidonZ.

Do you still want to say the perdi sian menson would not make sense to speakers of other languages than English?

sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 6. augusta 2012 0:13:58

Alice vidis ke Bob donis al Mallory kafon, rigardante siajn notojn"? Who is looking at whose notes?
Bob is looking at his own notes. I hope he doesn't spill the coffee.

Hyperboreus (Zobraziť profil) 6. augusta 2012 7:06:00

Forigite

Hyperboreus (Zobraziť profil) 6. augusta 2012 7:45:12

Forigite

sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 6. augusta 2012 11:10:55

HB, the rules are not in dispute. They are documented in grammars such as PAG and PMEG. The issue is only whether a certain laxity is permitted in informal communication in the application of the rules, when this disambiguates.

Now you argue that an illegal use of sia might not be understood if your mother tongue does not have this use. But this is to overlook that sia has a certain meaning known to all Esperantists from its legal use.

Li kaj sia edzino promenis en la parko breaks the rules, but from the legal use you know that the intention is to emphasize that it was his own wife not somebody else's.

Consider this dialogue in a 'policier':

- Oni scias ke li kaj lia edzino pasigis la nokton de la 23a en la hotelo.
- Ĉu lia edzino, aŭ ĉu sia? Jen la demando. Oni ne ĉiam povas fidi je registro-libro de hotelo.
- Certe li ne pasigis la nokton sola

(No less than the La Prezidanto de la Akademio once told me that he had observed other Akademianoj in breach of the formal rules with regard to sia.)

Or: Ĉiam kondukante sian aŭton zorge, neniam okazis al li akcidento. The subject of okazis is akcidento, so this is a breach, ĉu ne? But is there any problem understanding this, and isn't it clearer than kondukante lian aŭton. And how would you rewrite 'okazis al li' to make the subject li and therefore the use of 'sian' legal.

Nahor