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Correct usage -ant and si

viết bởi EldanarLambetur, Ngày 04 tháng 8 năm 2012

Tin nhắn: 16

Nội dung: English

EldanarLambetur (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:25:50 Ngày 04 tháng 8 năm 2012

I'm fairly confident that this structure is correct:
  • Rigardante siajn notojn, li ne feliĉas. = Looking at his (own) notes, he wasn't happy.
But I want to say something like:
  • Looking downward at his notes, it seemed to him as though someone else had written them.
I started with a similar pattern:
  • Malsupren rigardante siajn notojn, ŝajnas al li ke/kvazaŭ...
But realised that "li" is no longer the subject of the main verb. Instead, the "ke" phrase would be the subject I believe? Which means "si" no longer refers to "li", and seemingly neither does "rigardante".

What's the solution? Does the entire sentence need rewording or can this be salvaged? (Or have I got my understanding of things confused!)

Thanks!

Chainy (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:43:24 Ngày 04 tháng 8 năm 2012

EldanarLambetur:Looking downward at his notes, it seemed to him as though someone else had written them.
EDIT: this following statement appears to be wrong!

= Rigardante siajn notojn, ŝajnis al li, kvazaŭ iu alia skribis ilin.

It's possible to use 'sia' in that sentence because 'rigardante siajn notojn' = 'Kiam li rigardis siajn notojn'.

EldanarLambetur (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:23:50 Ngày 04 tháng 8 năm 2012

Really? Useful to know if that's the case, because that interpretation seems to be in conflict with what the PMEG reckons:

"Participo kun E-finaĵo ĉiam havas la saman subjekton kiel la ĉefverbo:

Lavinte siajn vestaĵojn Karlo kuiris vespermanĝon. Karlo estis lavinta siajn vestaĵojn."

Whereas you're suggesting (I think) that if I have a phrase like below, "si" is referring to "li" and not "ili", despite the fact that "ili" is the main subject:

Rigardante siajn manojn, ili ŝajnas al li bona

Of course "si" referring to "li" is the only sensible interpretation, but it still seems to be against how the PMEG describes the "si" rules.

It even sounds a little weird, feels like the subjects are mismatched. It kinda reminds me of the kind of sentence that PMEG explicitly says to avoid:

"Promenante sur la strato venis subite ideo al mi en la kapon"

"ideo" is the subject, which means technically "promenante" describes a walking idea, not a person.

Unless of course there's an exception for when the subject is a phrase (e.g. "ke" ), then it's obvious that the "si" is referring to "li" in "ŝajnis al li ke..." because "si" wouldn't be referring to a phrase...

Chainy (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:44:35 Ngày 04 tháng 8 năm 2012

It seems you know the answer to this better than me. I've read through PMEG, and yes it does have a strict interpretation, which doesn't allow for an implied subject. So, as PMEG suggests, you'd have to reword the sentence:

"Kiam li rigardis siajn notojn, ŝajnis al li, kvazaŭ iu alia skribis ilin."

AŬ:

"Rigardante siajn notojn, li havis la impreson, kvazaŭ iu alia skribis ilin."

Chainy (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:01:11 Ngày 04 tháng 8 năm 2012

EldanarLambetur:I'm fairly confident that this structure is correct:
  • Rigardante siajn notojn, li ne feliĉas. = Looking at his (own) notes, he wasn't happy.
You have to mark the past tense somehow. So, you'd have to write '...li ne feliĉIs.'

EldanarLambetur (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 15:30:53 Ngày 04 tháng 8 năm 2012

Woops tense mistake!

Thanks! Well without your help I wouldn't have recalled that PMEG page! Plus need to check that I wasn't misunderstanding. It just seemed weird that in english it could be as simple as "looking as his notes, it seemed to him as though..."

But I guess the english one tolerates the ambiguity that it could be his notes or someone elses.

Hyperboreus (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 18:02:14 Ngày 04 tháng 8 năm 2012

Forigite

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 10:35:54 Ngày 05 tháng 8 năm 2012

I am not convinced one needs to be too pedantic here. Adverbs are often used to describe the general circumstances.

Survoje al la stacidomo, venis al mi en la kapon la penso, ke ....

Now if, following the strict recommendations, we said:

Survoje al lia domo, venis al li en la kapon la ideo ke...

we would not actually know if the idea occurred when he was going to his own house or someone else's. (I think we can be certain that the idea occurred in the protagonist's head and not someone else's.)

This ambiguity would be removed by saying Survoje al sia domo.

There is therefore a certain pragmatic justification for using 'sia' in Rigardante siajn notojn, ŝajnis al li ke ... even though the subject of ŝajnas is not Li.

Of course, you could easily re-word to make the sentence conform to PMEG-recommended diktat.

Hyperboreus (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:29:08 Ngày 05 tháng 8 năm 2012

Forigite

Hyperboreus (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:29:52 Ngày 05 tháng 8 năm 2012

Forigite

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