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Intonation

sudanglo-ისა და 23 აგვისტო, 2012-ის მიერ

შეტყობინებები: 40

ენა: English

darkweasel (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 5 სექტემბერი, 2012 20:29:58

sudanglo:An interesting example again from the same lecture by John Wells.

Suppose someone says Vi devus aĉeti komputilon

and you wish to reply protestingly that you have already got one (which as a native speaker of English you would probably indicate by intonation - rising on 'got' and falling on 'one', how would you handle this in Esperanto?

Consider these alternatives:

(i) Sed mi jam havas komputilon!
(ii) Sed komputilon mi jam havas!

Which do you prefer and how would your frazmelodio differ?
I would prefer (i). I am not good at describing intonation but I think I would rise at havas and fall at komputilon.

erinja (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 5 სექტემბერი, 2012 23:20:15

I'd do the same as darkweasel.

creedelambard (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 6 სექტემბერი, 2012 04:43:11

And they say Chinese is hard to learn because it's a tonal language . . .

Evildela (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 6 სექტემბერი, 2012 07:36:27

Intonation (on a sentence level) is not a part of Esperanto, so changing your tone would only inform Western speakers of your meaning. If you want to draw attention to something use the word "ja"

I already have a computer
Sed mi jam havas komputilon

But lets emphsise the fact that we already have one;
Sed mi jam ja havas komputilon

This usage is supported by the tekstaro. Changing the tone of a sentence in Esperanto (although something we westerns naturally do) should not be used.

sudanglo (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 6 სექტემბერი, 2012 11:00:34

But lets emphasise the fact that we already have one;
Sed mi jam ja havas komputilon
Actually, the Tekstaro has no hits for jam ja but there are some for ja jam.

The John Well's lecture, which I had a quick look at last night, seems to suggest that there are some universals of intonation - so they can be legitimately part of Esperanto.

If I don't misremember in the komputila ekzemplo he argues that English native speakers would prefer (i) and do something with the havas. Russians would prefer (ii) but I can't remember now which word the Russians were supposed to pick out for intonational treatment.

Actually, I don't see why Esperanto has to limit itself in intonation just to universals. Why can't it (perhaps it already has) evolve its own system.

I'll come back in a mo' and post the link to his lecture.

Edit: here's the link

John seems to assert that native English speakers make a much greater use of intonation to convey meaning that is usual in other languages - which would certainly explain my perception of foreign learners of English often sounding wrong (seeming to convey an attitude or meaning which circumstances suggest was not what they intended). If true, we ought to make more use of this in our propaganda.

RiotNrrd (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 6 სექტემბერი, 2012 20:04:52

sudanglo:If true, we ought to make more use of this in our propaganda.
The first rule of propaganda: don't call it propaganda. ridulo.gif

sudanglo (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 7 სექტემბერი, 2012 09:29:04

Consider the following dialogue, extracted from Maigret hezitas.

- Kion vi pensas pri ŝi?
- Eble mi metos ŝin en unu el miaj teatraĵoj ..
- Ĉar ŝi estas malmulte ordinara persono?
- Estas neniu ordinara ĉi tie ... Ĉiuj estas frenezaj...
- Ankaŭ via ĉefo?

Did you have a problem following this dialogue? I suspect not. Yet there are two questions (lines 3. and 5.) not marked by question words, which could have been comments. Merely the use of a question mark shows that they are questions.

Now consider that you were having this conversation. How would you mark the questions in your speech?

Urho (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 7 სექტემბერი, 2012 10:52:08

sudanglo:Now consider that you were having this conversation. How would you mark the questions in your speech?
bv. kompari kun mia mesaĝo Vij eble parolas…[/url]

sudanglo (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 სექტემბერი, 2012 10:37:37

I wonder when the marking of a question just by a question mark first appeared in dialogues in a text in Esperanto. Anybody currently reading an older text noticed it? Has this convention always existed in Esperanto?

Of course the idea that you can question in speech by fraz-melodio a form that is grammatically a statement is not alien to speakers of English and French. Is this a universal? If so, is the frazmelodio the same in all languages?

Another thing. John seems to suggest that rendering a question like Did you take my keys? (emphasizing you) by Ĉu estis vi, kiu prenis miajn ŝlosilojn may not be universally recognized (the emphasis part). Or perhaps I misunderstand him.

I find this construction quite normal and it exists in French, I believe, as well as English.

Hyperboreus (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 სექტემბერი, 2012 17:46:07

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