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Intonation

от sudanglo, 23 август 2012

Съобщения: 40

Език: English

Evildela (Покажи профила) 11 септември 2012, 03:01:35

I speak conversational Chinese (because my wife is Chinese) and I can say even 'ma' varies depending on region, my wife pronounces it as a 5th tone, which is light, and doesn't rise, but more falls. Now this is unimportant, because it's a single piece within a sentence, English people when asking a question raise the tone of the complete last word, or drop it in a statement. I asked my wife about this, and she said she spent a whole semester mastering English tones in regards to question's / statements, and even after living in Australia for 6 years still has problems from time to time. So the question is, do we really want to add a whole new rule to Esperanto?? I think it's better that we just make clear cut sentences when talking rather than being lazy English natives. I still propose that 'ja' is better when you want to emphasis something.

This whole thing can work in reverse,
The two following words mean exactly the same thing;
真的 (zhen1de5)
真的马 (zhen1de5ma5)
However if you say zhen1de5 and drop the ma, than the whole sentence is actually at a higher tone than the standard first tone. However if you leave the sentence at the standard first tone level it's a statement. Trust me, it's a b::*h to master, trying to hear the subtle differences, now imagine if Chinese Esperantist's wanted to inflict this pain on Esperanto.

High level tone + ma = question
High level tone = statement
Extreme high level tone = question

sudanglo (Покажи профила) 11 септември 2012, 10:56:35

As I said before, Evildela, if all languages, use some sort of intonational device in informal conversation to turn statements into questions, then even if this varies between languages, it seems to me OK to represent this informality in written translations of dialogue with just a question mark attached to what is grammatically a statement or comment.

This technique is used widely in Maigret hezitas and it makes the dialogues come alive.

This doesn't mean that we have to create a new rule for speaking Esperanto.

However it raises the question of what to do if we were making a TV programme of a policier or some other drama in which there was informal terse dialogue.

creedelambard (Покажи профила) 12 септември 2012, 02:31:54

Looking through Richardson's Esperanto: Learning and Using the International Language, I just noticed that in Lesson 2, section 2 he explicitly states that Esperanto allows for a rising (in his words, "questioning" ) tone to indicate a question. Examples: "Vere?" (Really?) "Via patro estas en Parizo?" (Your father is in Paris?)

But he also says that that's an informal usage and the proper way to do it is with ĉu:

"Ĉu vere?" (Really??)
"Ĉu via patro estas en Parizo?" (Is your father in Paris?)

Just thought I'd pass that along.

sudanglo (Покажи профила) 12 септември 2012, 10:30:07

Interesting CL. Yes, I think that the use of statements/comments intonated as questions must be a fact about spoken Esperanto.

Perhaps the linguists could actually study spoken informal Esperanto and tell us whether only one, or several different, intonations are used.

Bruso (Покажи профила) 12 септември 2012, 13:46:03

sudanglo:Perhaps the linguists could actually study spoken informal Esperanto and tell us whether only one, or several different, intonations are used.
I'd be very surprised if it didn't turn out that most speakers were imposing their first-language patterns onto Esperanto.

sudanglo (Покажи профила) 12 септември 2012, 20:35:00

If that turns out to be the case, Bruso, (one needs to do the experiment), then the interesting issue becomes, what are the features in common of intonation use (in the various mother tongues) to turn a statement/comment into a question and is there a pattern of usage sufficiently well established among a majority of speakers for it to be considered a linguistic feature of Esperanto?

Or is intonation extra-linguistic on the statement/question dimension in Esperanto?

What happens in practice in fluent informal speech?

Putting it more pointedly, is Maigret hezitas a bad translation because in the dialogues many (grammatical) statements are flagged as questions only by means of a question mark?

(Obviously should anyone not be sure of a speaker's intention, it is always possible to ask Ĉu vi asertas or demandas and the speaker can always add ĉu at the end if he wants to make his meaning explicit, if he hasn't already used it at the beginning of his utterance.)

As soon as I think about my own speech in Esperanto, I become too self-conscious, to be sure what I do automatically.

Incidentally, think I feel a difference between initial ĉu and terminal ĉu.

- Li venos venont-semajne.
- Ĉu marde? / Marde, ĉu?

marcuscf (Покажи профила) 13 септември 2012, 18:16:21

(regarding the original question, about intonation mistakes in English and French) maybe the problem is that English is a stress-timed language, while Esperanto is syllable-timed? I guess French is syllable-timed too.

Hyperboreus (Покажи профила) 13 септември 2012, 18:43:17

Forigite

Rugxdoma (Покажи профила) 14 септември 2012, 18:15:24

sudanglo:...is there a pattern of usage sufficiently well established among a majority of speakers for it to be considered a linguistic feature of Esperanto?

Or is intonation extra-linguistic on the statement/question dimension in Esperanto?

What happens in practice in fluent informal speech?

Putting it more pointedly, is Maigret hezitas a bad translation because in the dialogues many (grammatical) statements are flagged as questions only by means of a question mark?

(Obviously should anyone not be sure of a speaker's intention, it is always possible to ask Ĉu vi asertas or demandas and the speaker can always add ĉu at the end if he wants to make his meaning explicit, if he hasn't already used it at the beginning of his utterance.)
Your questions about the Esperanto question mark is interesting. According to the answers the intonation is not a universal invariant. Still that does not necessarily mean that the Maigret translation is bad. The Esperanto question may indicate gestures or face expressions, even in the absence of a question intonation.

Viaj demandoj pri la Esperanta demanda signo estas interesa. Laux la respondoj la fraztono ne estas universale nevarianta lingvoeco. Malgraue ne estas certe, ke la traduko de Maigret ne estus bona. La Esperanta demandosigno povas indiki demandaesprimantajn gestojn aux vizagxesprimojn, eĉ se demanda fraztono mankas.

sudanglo (Покажи профила) 14 септември 2012, 20:16:33

A good point ruĝdoma.

Actually, if I had to use one word to describe the quality of the afore-mentioned translation I would say 'glata'. The dialogues are very lifelike, and convincing. I can almost hear them as I read.

But then, I can read in English and French, and in both languages questions can be marked other than by formal grammatical structures in fluent conversation.

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