К содержанию
Ответить

Swings and Roundabouts

от Simon Pure, 26 августа 2012 г.

Сообщений: 14

Язык: English

Simon Pure (Показать профиль) 26 августа 2012 г., 10:41:12

I am reading Don Lord's Ĉiutaga Esperanto and in it he translates balanciloj as swings and uses baskulo for teeter-totter or see-saw. Here in the lernu vortaro balancilo is see-saw and to mine English speaking ears this sounds more correct than swing.

So if not balancilo, what is the Esperanto word for swing?

creedelambard (Показать профиль) 26 августа 2012 г., 11:06:08

This might be a falsa amiko. PIV gives the definition of "pendolo" (pendulum) as "Pezaĵo, pendanta de fiksa punkto k balanciĝanta laŭ egalaj temperoj" so that would seem to support the use of "balannilo" for "swing." The tekstaro gives two citations for "svingiĝi" with reference to a pendulum, but they both appear to be from the same article (about the political pendulum swinging in a new direction) so there might be a nuance there, since "svingi" looks like it's more energetic than "balanci". I don't think "svingilo" is correct for a swing - it looks like it might mean "a tool that would fling your kid about" which isn't what you want a swing to do. ridulo.gif

I guess you could call it a "knabopendolo" but "balancilo" saves you a syllable.

Chainy (Показать профиль) 26 августа 2012 г., 11:24:21

According to vortaro.net (NPIV):

swing = pendolo (Pendolsimila ludilo, kiu konsistas el sidtabulo, pendanta de du longaj ŝnuroj k laŭvole svingebla (balancilo))
see-saw = baskulo (Longa tabulo metita sur ŝtipo, tiel ke personoj po unu ĉe ĉiu ekstremaĵo povas alterne leviĝi k malleviĝi)

And vortaro.net suggests that 'balancilo' can refer to either a swing or a see-saw.

Wikipedia supports the above, apart from the fact that it uses 'pendolilo' rather than 'pendolo'.

Wells suggests:

swing = balancilo
see-saw = baskulo

So, it seems that people might often be tempted to use 'balancilo' to refer to a swing, although it can in fact have a broader meaning, which also includes 'see-saw'. A more precise way of naming a see-saw seems to be 'pendolo/pendolilo'.

Chainy (Показать профиль) 26 августа 2012 г., 12:00:53

Wells links 'svingi' with the the word 'brandish' in the section for 'swing', which is accurate but doesn't give a full understanding of the word. In the same section, Wells also gives a translation for 'swing door' (svingopordo), the type of door that you push open in either direction. If you imagine such a door swinging back and forth, then that helps clarify the meaning of 'la pordo svingiĝas'.

Both 'balanci' and 'svingi' are transitive. "Balanci" always involves the idea of 'up and down':

Jese balanci la kapon = kapjesi (moving head up and down)

But, in many cases, it seems that either word can be used, and there's a lot of crossover. In vortaro.net, many of the examples of 'svingi' could be said with 'balanci'.

sidi sur tablo, svingante la krurojn = sidi sur tablo, balancante la krurojn.

- Or is there a difference between the above? The definitions of 'svingi' usually mention the speed or strength of the movement, but then the examples given don't automatically require such speed and strength. Slightly confusing.

Chainy (Показать профиль) 26 августа 2012 г., 12:23:45

Originally, the Lernu dictionary looked like this:
swing = svingiĝi, pendoli, svingi, balanci
But, using Wells and a few additions, I've now changed it to this:
swing = balanc-i tr, -iĝi, -iĝo, -ilo; (brandish, move back and forth) sving-i tr, -iĝi; (in playground) pendolo, pendolilo; turn-i tr, -iĝi; swing bridge: turnoponto; swing door: svingopordo
What do you think? It's rather difficult indicating the difference between 'balanci' and 'svingi'. Maybe I should add 'up and down' in relation to 'balanci'? Wells includes 'turni', so perhaps in some contexts that makes sense.

Chainy (Показать профиль) 26 августа 2012 г., 12:58:05

Simon Pure:Here in the lernu vortaro balancilo is see-saw
I think this should be changed to:

balancilo = swing, see-saw

- this is supported by vortaro.net, Kondratjev, ReVo

Simon Pure (Показать профиль) 27 августа 2012 г., 10:34:36

Chainy:Originally, the Lernu dictionary looked like this:
swing = svingiĝi, pendoli, svingi, balanci
But, using Wells and a few additions, I've now changed it to this:
swing = balanc-i tr, -iĝi, -iĝo, -ilo; (brandish, move back and forth) sving-i tr, -iĝi; (in playground) pendolo, pendolilo; turn-i tr, -iĝi; swing bridge: turnoponto; swing door: svingopordo
What do you think? It's rather difficult indicating the difference between 'balanci' and 'svingi'. Maybe I should add 'up and down' in relation to 'balanci'? Wells includes 'turni', so perhaps in some contexts that makes sense.
Svingilo is not on that list. Which vortaro.net lists as:

svingilo. Ĉio, kio servas por svingi k nome:
1 Frapilo pendanta en sonorilo.
2 Pendolo de horloĝo.
3 Batilo de draŝilo.
4 Fera stango, por funkciigi pumpilon.
5 Pendolo de ludaparato.

Chainy (Показать профиль) 27 августа 2012 г., 15:47:09

Simon Pure:Svingilo is not on that list. Which vortaro.net lists as:

svingilo. Ĉio, kio servas por svingi k nome:
1 Frapilo pendanta en sonorilo.
2 Pendolo de horloĝo.
3 Batilo de draŝilo.
4 Fera stango, por funkciigi pumpilon.
5 Pendolo de ludaparato.
Yes, 'svingilo' covers quite a few things, but it doesn't seem like any of them would be translated as 'swing'.

1 Frapilo pendanta en sonorilo. = The beating device hanging in a bell (clapper)
2 Pendolo de horloĝo. = the pendulum of a clock
3 Batilo de draŝilo. = some part of a threshing machine, whatever that's called!
4 Fera stango, por funkciigi pumpilon. = An iron rod/bar used in a pump (presumably the 'piston' or 'plunger', or something along those lines, depending on the type of pump)
5 Pendolo de ludaparato. = the pendulum of the play-apparatus. This seems to refer to the specific part of the swing, i.e. the bit dangling down, at the end of which the seat is attached.

I have to admit, that the inclusion of number 5 can make things a bit confusing. I'm still having difficulty fixing in my mind the exact difference between 'balanci' and 'svingi'. The apparent overlap in meaning is the problem.

Another example that I found in vortaro.net:

"la ŝipo balanciĝis sur la maro" = The ship bobbed/rocked up and down on the sea

- There's no way you could replace 'balanciĝi' with 'svingiĝi' in the above sentence.

Chainy (Показать профиль) 27 августа 2012 г., 15:58:47

Perhaps this is a good way of looking at it. A swing has a rope with a seat attached to it. The rope 'svingiĝas' (swings) from left to right, which causes the seat to 'balanciĝi' (move) up and down. What do you think?

Chainy (Показать профиль) 27 августа 2012 г., 16:19:42

But then you come across something like this:

"la infanoj rigardas la gaje svingiĝantajn ruĝajn fiŝojn"

- swinging fish?! ridulo.gif

----
EDIT: I've now worked out the meaning of this. "Svingiĝi" is actually used in terms of the second definition of 'svingi' (= Forte streĉi la muskolojn, por ekĵeti ion antaŭen) - so the fish are not 'swinging', but energetically pushing themselves forward through the water.
----

'Svingi' is clearly not directly translatable. The basic meaning of 'svingi' is:

Rapide k ripete moveti ion en aero tien k reen = to quickly and repeatedly move something slightly in the air backwards and forwards.

"Svingi la manon" = to wave, or at least something like that...
"svingi bastonon, la pugnon" - this is why Wells mentions the word 'brandish' in relation to 'svingi'.
"ĥorknaboj svingis arĝentan incensilojn" - The choir boys swung the silver thuribles.

Vortaro.net also gives two other definitions for svingi...

Наверх