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What would have been, if...

від Hyperboreus, 26 серпня 2012 р.

Повідомлення: 20

Мова: English

Chainy (Переглянути профіль) 26 серпня 2012 р. 18:54:46

Hyperboreus:"Him goes" surely looks crazy and non-sensical to you. As does "He goes" to a Mayan.
In the example you give above, you seem to be using 'him' to represent the absolutive, at least according to what I understand from Wikipedia. But, I don't understand why you've used that form. Why not just write 'he', as the ergative is only necessary when the active agent is unclear, ie in a sentence with a transitive verb.

I would illustrate it this way (first version in normal Esperanto, followed by the ergative equivalent):

Mi vidas ŝin = Min ŝi vidas (the ergative 'n' marks who does the seeing. 'Ŝi' has no ending, so must represent what is being seen)
Mi iras = Mi iras ('Mi' is in the absolutive, as the intransitive verb leads to no possible confusion as to who is going)

So, putting it simply, ergative languages simply mark who is doing something, rather what the object is. Or have I misunderstood something?!

Hyperboreus (Переглянути профіль) 26 серпня 2012 р. 19:03:45

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Chainy (Переглянути профіль) 26 серпня 2012 р. 19:07:55

Hyperboreus:"I see him." (I = ergative, him = absolutive)
"Him goes." (him = absolutive).
Ok, I now get it, you've just done it the opposite way round to me.

He goes (he = absolutive) = Li iras
Me he see (Me = ergative, he= absolutive) = Mi vidas lin

- It's just kind of difficult making an equivalent in English!

Hyperboreus (Переглянути профіль) 26 серпня 2012 р. 19:09:42

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sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 26 серпня 2012 р. 20:54:32

Luckily, in the industrialised world they speak languages in which Esperanto's pattern is normal.

So thanks, but no thanks. Need I list the countries?

Hyperboreus (Переглянути профіль) 26 серпня 2012 р. 21:24:44

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robbkvasnak (Переглянути профіль) 26 серпня 2012 р. 21:51:16

I worked with Kan'jobal speakers here in Florida. They did not want to learn English but rather Spanish, because the world in which they live speaks Spanish - right here in Florida. They shop in the bodega and send money home through the remesas. I tried to get them to teach me some Kan'jobal. They could not understand why I would want to learn their language. They were practical, I was curious. I had the luxury of being able to be curious without having to use Spanish to get by (I also speak Spanish and am a certified Spanish teacher). So I taught them how to read and write in Spanish and I taught them how to use the local, Floridian food products (they are cheap) to create meals for their families. This was new to them but their foods are imported and are expensive. Maybe I was "destroying" a food culture, but I was helping them survive.

Hyperboreus (Переглянути профіль) 26 серпня 2012 р. 22:00:34

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sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 27 серпня 2012 р. 09:07:12

In no way did I misunderstand your intent, HB. But the argument that Esperanto is handicapped in its role as an IL because it reflects a certain sort of language family does crop up from time to time and it needs addressing.

Firstly the figure of 1300 million Chimese living in 'industrialised country' is a bit misleading. I believe that a fairly high proportion them are still scratching a living in rural circumstances and would certainly have no interest in an IL. Those who might need an IL are almost certainly taught English at school and so have been 'broken in' in respect of Indo-European linguistic habits.

Anyway even if the Chinese say He come yesterday/ he come tomorrow/ he come now - so not changing the verb with time, it would be clear that he come needs to have something added to it to pin it down. Why not add -is -as -os. As these finaĵoj don't change in form they are just like the separate words of an isolating language.

Those Japanese who might need an Il are also mostly likely taught English at school. And I suppose in Basque country they would learn French or Spanish just because they have proximate powerful neighbours just a stone's throw away.

Anyway because of Esperanto's extreme regularity the whole issue of whether it conforms to the grammatical predilections of your mother tongue hardly seems to be of practical importance.

An alien rule that applies uniformly can't be that difficult to learn.

marcuscf (Переглянути профіль) 27 серпня 2012 р. 15:41:47

Hyperboreus:These teaching experiences also taught us that you cannot take anything for granted when teaching a languages. What seems natural, logical and proper in one language, looks completely loony, non-sensical and arbitrary in another.
That's what I think everytime I read that someone tried to create an auxiliary language that looks/sounds “natural”. They add silly irregularities (copied from Latin, French, etc.) and say “Hey, language isn't math”.

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