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Verb to Noun/Noun to Verb

RajMishra, 2012 m. lapkritis 7 d.

Žinutės: 11

Kalba: English

RajMishra (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 7 d. 05:27:55

Some roots are 'Verb' roots, they have the natural tendency to take 'i' ending; Kur->kuri/am-ami/renkon->renkoti/
nask-naski.
In the case of ami, when 'i' is replaced by 'O', the words becomes 'love' or, I may be wrong: the root 'am' may have the natural tendency to take 'O'.
Anyway, whatever the case might be, 'to love' can be changed into 'love' and vice veraca by a little 'last-piece' change.
Now consider the word, 'Tranchilo', it means knife. Does 'tranchili' mean 'to knife'?
Lets now take the case of 'Naski': to express the concept of 'Birth-day" we have to change 'Naski' into 'Naskigxo'. What is worng with 'Nasktago', can we not form 'Nasko' on the line of 'Amo'?

The last question:
Do we add the suffix 'igx- to make Gerund?
Renkoni means to meet but 'renkonigxis' means 'meeting'.
Can we say 'Paroligxis' for 'Talking/Conversation'?

The formation of 'Noun to Verb' and 'Verb to Noun' are giving me a real hard time!

darkweasel (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 7 d. 06:42:10

RajMishra:Some roots are 'Verb' roots, they have the natural tendency to take 'i' ending; Kur->kuri/am-ami/renkon->renkoti/
nask-naski.
In the case of ami, when 'i' is replaced by 'O', the words becomes 'love' or, I may be wrong: the root 'am' may have the natural tendency to take 'O'.
Right - AM/ is a verbal root.

RajMishra: Anyway, whatever the case might be, 'to love' can be changed into 'love' and vice veraca by a little 'last-piece' change.
Now consider the word, 'Tranchilo', it means knife. Does 'tranchili' mean 'to knife'?
(I had to check what that word means in English.) Tranĉili means "to do something with a knife". It is not a word that you can use very frequently, and it doesn't have a lexicalized more special meaning because there is no "most likely" action that you can do with a knife.

RajMishra: Lets now take the case of 'Naski': to express the concept of 'Birth-day" we have to change 'Naski' into 'Naskigxo'. What is worng with 'Nasktago', can we not form 'Nasko' on the line of 'Amo'?
Naski means "to give birth", naskiĝi means "to be born". So both nasko and naskiĝo mean "a birth" but the first one means it from the perspective of the mother, the second one from the one of the child.

"Birthday" is normally naskiĝtago because when you're talking about somebody's birthday, the important thing is that they were born on that day, not that somebody gave birth.

RajMishra:The last question:
Do we add the suffix 'igx- to make Gerund?
Renkoni means to meet but 'renkonigxis' means 'meeting'.
Can we say 'Paroligxis' for 'Talking/Conversation'?
No, -iĝ means a lot of things but not what you think it means. When you put it on a (transitive) verb, it changes it into a "middle voice" verb. That is similar to a passive but it doesn't emphasize that it was somebody else who did that - the subject may also have done this to themself.

tommjames (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 7 d. 10:37:54

RajMishra:Do we add the suffix 'igx- to make Gerund?
Renkoni means to meet but 'renkonigxis' means 'meeting'.
Can we say 'Paroligxis' for 'Talking/Conversation'?
As darkweasel has explained, -iĝ is not what you want here. To form a gerund in Esperanto you would typically use the -ad suffix, so talking = parolado. In some cases you may be able to translate an English gerund by simply using the substantive form of a verb, like "danco": "Mi ŝatas dancon" would be acceptable as a translation of both "I like dance" and "I like dancing".

sudanglo (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 7 d. 11:23:36

In English what a verb from a noun means can sometimes be a bit arbitrary, also the whole thing is often determined by usage rather than logic or any consistent system

You probably wouldn't say to 'spade' the ground, or to 'fork' someone, or to 'scissor' some paper.

However in a fight in a pub someone might 'knife' someone, and you can 'spoon' sugar into your tea.

Why wouldn't you say 'tranĉili'? Probably because we have the verb tranĉi for the action. Again, I doubt that one would say 'skribili, for to 'pen' a letter, nor 'kombili' for to 'comb' ones hair.

You can of course say 'ponardi' for to stab, or 'marteli' for to hammer, or 'brosi' for to brush, but these are verbs derived from the nouns ponardo, martelo, and broso.

darkweasel (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 7 d. 12:40:40

sudanglo:or to 'fork' someone
Not someone, but maybe a piece of software ...? ridulo.gif

hebda999 (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 7 d. 13:14:50

darkweasel:
(I had to check what that word means in English.) Tranĉili means "to do something with a knife". It is not a word that you can use very frequently, and it doesn't have a lexicalized more special meaning because there is no "most likely" action that you can do with a knife.
I would rather understand "tranĉili" as "to be a knife", though I would not use it in such way.

tommjames (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 7 d. 13:33:28

Verbs made out of roots denoting some sort of tool or apparatus most often mean to use that tool, so the best way to read "tranĉili" in my view would be "to use a knife" or "to knife". PMEG discusses this in Verboj el ne-agaj radikoj. Clearly tranĉil' is not a root, but I don't think that matters.

T0dd (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 16 d. 16:27:57

Just reading through this thread, I'm struck by the word paroliĝi and whether it has a use.

The English word "transpire" is sometimes used to mean "happen" but it actually means "to become known", in the sense of word getting out about something. I wonder if it would work to say something like Paroliĝis ke la generalo havis amaferon. "It transpired that the general had an affair." Would diriĝi be better? To me, Diriĝis ke la generalo havis amaferon is more like "It was said that the general had an affair," which isn't quite the same. In any case, I'd be more inclined to say Oni diris...

Maybe just sciiĝi is best...

erinja (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 16 d. 20:08:38

I use -iĝ- for those kinds of impersonal situations all the time.

I like diriĝis better than paroliĝis in that case, though.

matrix (Rodyti profilį) 2012 m. lapkritis 17 d. 07:16:58

T0dd:I wonder if it would work to say something like Paroliĝis ke la generalo havis amaferon. "It transpired that the general had an affair." Would diriĝi be better? To me, Diriĝis ke la generalo havis amaferon is more like "It was said that the general had an affair,"
In Esperanto, there is no sequence of tenses. And commas are supposed to be put between clauses, which, in this case, is quite useful.
So, “Diriĝis ke la generalo havis amaferon.” should be “Diriĝis, ke la generalo havas amaferon.”

As for “to transpire”, it may be translated by aperi.
In this case, there is a notion of progressiveness of a process which becomes known or apparent.
“It transpired that the general had an affair.” may be translated by “Aperis, ke la generalo havas amaferon.” or “Oni aperigis, ke la generalo havas amaferon.”

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