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German or Teutonic?

de Bruso, 27 novembre 2012

Messages : 5

Langue: English

Bruso (Voir le profil) 27 novembre 2012 21:23:02

The Esperanto Wikipedia translates "Teutonic Knights" as "Ordeno de Germanaj Kavaliroj". Lernu's Vortaro also translates English "Teutonic" simply as "Germana".

However, Privat's "Vivo de Zamenhof" refers to "teŭtonaj kavaliroj", so it seems Esperanto historically could distinguish the words "German" and "Teutonic".

But not any more? Is there some reason "teŭtona" is no longer used (if it isn't)?

Chainy (Voir le profil) 27 novembre 2012 23:04:25

ReVo doesn't have 'teŭtona', but various other dictionaries do: Wells, NPIV, Kondratjev. So, this word probably should be in the Lernu dictionary.

Chainy (Voir le profil) 28 novembre 2012 19:36:32

Nobody has objected, so I've added 'teutona' and 'teutono' to the Lernu-dictionary:

Teutonic = teŭtona, ĝermana
Teuton = teŭtono, ĝermano

Kirilo81 (Voir le profil) 29 novembre 2012 09:29:03

I think it's not useful to use "teutonic/teŭtona" in the meaning "germanic/ĝermana", because there is a word for this and on the other hand the original meaning of of "teŭtona" (NPIV: 1. Ano de unu el la ĝermanaj gentoj, kiuj invadis Gaŭlion k estis ekstermitaj de Romanoj apud Aikso (Provenco) en 102 a.K..) gets less visible.

In German, the Teutonic Order is called simply "Deutscher Orden" (German Order, where German may have its older meaning "Germanic").

So I would prefer if (NPIV) 1. was the only meaning of "teŭtona", with 2. and 3. beeing evitindaj - for 2. you can say "Germana Ordeno" (there's nothing Germanic with it) and for 3. simply "ĝermana".

pdenisowski (Voir le profil) 3 décembre 2012 01:53:55

Bruso:The Esperanto Wikipedia translates "Teutonic Knights" as "Ordeno de Germanaj Kavaliroj". Lernu's Vortaro also translates English "Teutonic" simply as "Germana".

However, Privat's "Vivo de Zamenhof" refers to "teŭtonaj kavaliroj", so it seems Esperanto historically could distinguish the words "German" and "Teutonic".

But not any more? Is there some reason "teŭtona" is no longer used (if it isn't)?
Teutonic and Germanic are not the same thing at all. The Wikipedia entry title seems to be a straight translation of the German "Deutscher Ritterorden," which has all kinds of dubious historical baggage and Germanic chauvanism associated with it.

[Aside : e.g. the Germans refer to Indo-European as Indo-Germanisch -- oddly enough this doesn't seem to have caught on among other peoples ...]

The name of the order in Latin was "Ordo Theutonicus" (hence Teuton in English).

Not a terribly common word, probably even in Zamenhof's time, although he certainly would have known Sienkiewicz's "Krzyżacy" in which this order plays a key role.

Amike,

Paul

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