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Concating Prepositions and Verbs

od uživatele kinghajj ze dne 22. října 2007

Příspěvky: 8

Jazyk: English

kinghajj (Ukázat profil) 22. října 2007 15:14:34

I've noticed that in Esperanto, one sometimes adds a preposition to a verb, for example alveni. I'm starting to think that the main reason for this is take a noun that would normally follow a preposition and objectify it.

For example, would these be equivelent?

Ŝi priparolis multajn problemojn.
Ŝi parolis pri multaj problemoj.

If so, I imagine this could be useful along with the correlative kiu.

Li loĝas en Belgio, kiun mi aliris por somerferio.
Li loĝas en Belgio, al kiu mi iris por somerferio.

mnlg (Ukázat profil) 22. října 2007 23:02:01

Yes, you are right, and your first example is correct. The second is also technically correct, however "aliri" has also taken on the general meaning of "to approach", "to advance". If you feel very strongly about objectifying "kiu", you could try another verb e.g., "kiun mi vizitis dum somerferio".

bluaMauritius (Ukázat profil) 24. října 2007 10:25:16

Redemando: In Webster universala mi ne trovis "to concate", sed en 'Cassel's New English Dictionary' (Cássel'es Nova Dikcionaro Angla) mi trovis "concatenate" qviel verbon transitivan. Czu tion vi celis? -
Ja oni devas esti singarda, kazo donitum qve la Angla havas senfinan voston el tiel nomata "ombra thesaûro" Latina, Hellena plus transoceanara. ---

Pri la demando via: Se mi ne erraras, exsistas formoi dinamikai, per kiu oni verbigante shaine ne-verbain vortoin [[Qíu cetere fixas vorton qviel dekomence verban? Tio estas cziam arbitra, la Chinoi pri tio havas tutalian opinion ol la Europanoi]],
attingas pli fortan kunkatenadon (A.: concatenation) en la propozicio, nome dinamikan! Laû Grabovski exemple la vorto
'veturintas' anstataû 'estas veturinta' esprimas la afferon pli dinamike kai forte.
Same: per 'aliri iun' pli forte esprimatas la affero ol per 'iri al iu'. En ambaû kazoi la celo, la objekto estas klare la sama. Nur qve la objektigo pli strikte kunkatenantas (=kunkatenanta est).
---hdito

erinja (Ukázat profil) 24. října 2007 15:10:07

You are welcome to post forum messages in any language here; however, since it is the English language forum, please always include an English translation, for the benefit of our beginners who do not yet have a good understanding of Esperanto (or Linguno, in your case, bluaMauritius)

kinghajj (Ukázat profil) 25. října 2007 2:07:35

I've never seen that derivation of Esperanto before. It's rather interesting, though the changes mostly appear cosmetic. I don't understand why some are so opposed to the "hat" characters in Esperanto.

Ĉ Ĝ Ĥ Ĵ Ŝ

Matthieu (Ukázat profil) 25. října 2007 9:45:22

These letters do not exist in the ASCII characters table, so they might be incorrectly displayed or difficult to write. However, this problem is solved by Unicode, which is now supported by almost all software.

bluaMauritius (Ukázat profil) 30. října 2007 17:42:38

Jius mi legis ke oni devas sole skribi en Anglezo respektive fari tradukon en Anglezan:
Just I read about beginners' difficulties with Esperanto, so I add a translation:

In Esperanto:
Rp.:
La demando origine metita de unu esperantano ne temis pri Esperanto-Moderna (ekde 1982 proximume), kiun mi aplikis en mia replika demando al li/shi, sed temis pri la uzado de prepozicio rekte kiel parto de verbo, formante kompozitojn.
Pri tio vi ne respondis,

In English:
The above placed question of one of the Esperanto freaks was not about Esperanto-Moderna (since about 1982), which I applied in my answer by counter-question, but dealt with the use of prepositions directly as part of the verb, forming a compositum. But to that question of the beginner you did not answer (instead you were guile to mingle in a discussion about Linguna, which was not even present, that much the English are haunted by this far better alternative international language than is English).

Dua parto/the second part of my answer was:
La jjusaj indikoj pri Linguna, nome ke mia kontribuo supra éstasu tiela, estas eraraj, czar Linguna nur ekestas depost 1991/92 kiel provo de liberigi Esperanton tute de la balasto el lambastonoj, inter ili kompreneble ankau de la supersignitaj konsonantoj (sed tio nur estas unu ero); aliaj estas: introduci femininon por feminoi (inaj personoj) kaj por nocioj kun forta pensigo pri etenditajjo, regiono, scienco, floroj, mashinoj, landnomoj;
krom tio en Linguna enestas substituoj al la germandevenaj vortoj (la plej multaj cziuokaze), enkonduko de Helenaj radikoj kaj iom pli multe da Slavaj radikoj plus radikoj el la pratempo de la hindeuropaj popoloj kaj ecz de transeuropaj triboj (lau Richard Fester), relatinigo foje ankau ekestas. La transskribo al romanida latino supremetis la i-punkton. Rigardu ...

In English
now translated for the beginners' sake:

The just made hints on Linguna concerning that my contribution would be posted in Linguna are wrong, cause Linguna does exist merely from 1991/92 onwards as an initiative, to free Esperanto totally from the wake of stinking water and of crutched sticks, to which of course belong the "hats" on consonants, too (this, however, being one item only). Other items were: introducing the feminine gender for femal persons as well as for thoughts/notions of large extension, spreading (out), stretching out, for regions, flowers, sciences, engines, country names. Above that, in Linguna there are substitutes in place of most German words, then prefering ancient Greek roots and words of the Slav languages, and roots of the diluvian and prediluvian remainders of primeval languages (according to Richard Fester) plus Indo-Europide language roots for determinants where necessary, furthermore a re-latinization took place and an orthography formed after Romance sources.
In one point concatenated: Esperanto plus Latin and Greek and the English Romance thesaurus in one, that is Linguna.
Surely you can imagine, how upset they all were and still are since the nineties of the past century-----------,because it is easier than English,-------------
that DID awaken even the CIA, the bells are ringing uninterruptedly. -

Look up in files to Linguna:
::
activi & trovidsi-omni.doc (834 KB)
GRAMMA-omni.tmd (591 KB)
AFFIXES.tmd (122 KB)
animaloi.tmd (155 KB)
féminai.doc (35 KB)
glossaro-omni.tmd (1 MB)
ANTIGERMAN-OMNI.tmd (417 KB)
DETERMIN.tmd (276 KB)
ANTIMAL.TMD (1 MB)
EXGERMAN.tmd (127 KB)
COMPAR 9-TZ.tmd (203 KB)
GERML 3-OT.TMD (229 KB)
MARCZEA.tmd (332 KB)
perip-alias 3.tmd (432 KB)
HOUM.tmd (402 KB)
voc-Hellenai.tmd (521 KB)
Geraeusche.tmd (20 KB)
FEMININE.tmd (141 KB)
GINSENGO.tmd (257 KB)
Introduzo secur-obturagjo.tmd (24 KB)
Praeposicioi.tmd (24 KB)
PronomoiPers.doc (26 KB)
Verben Arbeitsleben.tmd (316 KB)

If you like to see more, turn to Google
blogspots:

http://peripetio-al-linguna.blogspot.com
http://linguna.blogspot.com
http://linguna-verben.blogspot.com
http://grammatica-completa-de-linguna.blogspot.com
http://glossaro-linguna.blogspot.com
http://discutado-politica.blogspot.com
http://peripetio-al-linguna.blogspot.com

Google is far better than you have thought.

There is in addition a newsgroup called
"International Understanding-Pópolois entiendo", with Google

---hdito ~*~

P.S.: @ ERNINJA:
The times are gone for ever, where you and others could desinform about peoples understanding efforts. Bye-bye! Cheerio .

Verdano (Ukázat profil) 13. května 2008 10:00:27

Mi eskuzas la partopreninton, Linguna-on porantan. Li sentis sin iomete kverkombita pro la konstantai arogoi kontrau la plibonigo propono al Esperanto, kai petas akcepti eventuale la senkulpigoprovon.
Kverkombita oni raitas prave sentidshi, se oni vidas kiel Wikipedia.de (la Germana versio) basen balaas preskau czian mencionon de Linguna, malgrau qve/ke havatas interretai pagjumoi pio tio kai unu grupo sub Google/Gúgilo.

How did it happen, that a feminine form did appear as relevant to improve Esperanto?
Well, we had the discussion (see Mr. Schulz, Germany, who suggested once): that one should use the ending "-in" for characterizing names of girls and women, instead of the ending '-a', sometimes occuring with Latin names; so he suggested: Paulin (instead of Paula), Margin, Margaretin, Helgin, Anin, etc. But this counter-crossed
the use of '-in' in names of Russian men (sometimes), see: Lenin, Stalin, etc. And therefore this proposal was dismissed.
And the Esperanto Academy had approved that some names may have the ending '-a' meaning a feminine form: Ana, Helga, Margareta, Elisabeta, and so on.
And following this new trace, Mr. Goeres suggested - in his so-called 'Esperanto-Moderna' - to accept, too, that country names shlould be feminine: Germánia, Nederlándia, Canádia, Iália, Fráncia, etc.
From this, it was only a tiny step to demand that there should be feminine nouns for women: so: ina, femina, etc. And shocking enough, wenn looking up all the women there are in Esperanto being made merely by a rib of Adam, this rib being called "ino", the idea was born, to embellish and improve Esperanto by introducing proper nouns of their own for all women:
fémina, dujta (daughter), mejda, lela (aunt), achaita (sister, see Hebrew and Arab roots similar),
gailacha (bride), maica (mother), bábushka (grandma), etc.
The feminine ending -a [-a:] is being pronounced as being longer
than the very short -a of adjectives.
And now you can hack on the lingunists as much as you like, but the idea was not at all that much bad. - Language is a living phaenomenon. -

Yours truly,
Verdano

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