Mesaĝoj: 11
Lingvo: English
Bruso (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-20 13:42:21
But Italian has two phonemically different versions of both e and o.
It probably doesn't matter for comprehensibility, but ...
Which is preferred? Did Zamenhof have a preference? Do modern spertuloj have a preference?
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-20 15:46:19
Benjamino (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-20 16:01:30
Bruso:Supposedly Esperanto vowels are to be pronounced as in Italian.more or less- but there's really just a fundamental grammar which gives equivalents in five different languages (none of which is italian). except for the english, they mostly match up to the same sounds. as i've always heard it, they're more pronounced like the vowels in Latin, except without long or short distinctions.
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Fundamento_de_Espera...
http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Fundamento_de_Espera...
http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/Fundamento_de_Espera...
together, those give a pretty good description of how Zamenhof wanted Esperanto vowels to be pronounced. (there's an english grammar too, but zamenhof didn't really know how english was pronounced- and there is also a Polish grammar, which doesn't seem to be on Wikisource for some reason.)
as far as modern speakers go, there are definitely wrong and right ways to pronounce the language. here is an example of someone with good pronunciation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eh7UhpeKI0
Bruso (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-20 16:35:34
Benjamino:together, those give a pretty good description of how Zamenhof wanted Esperanto vowels to be pronounced. (there's an english grammar too, but zamenhof didn't really know how english was pronounced- and there is also a Polish grammar, which doesn't seem to be on Wikisource for some reason.)I found the original Fundamento on google books.
The English gives e as in "make" and o as in "not". In Italian terms a closed e and an open o.
The Russian, however, gives э for the e sound, which is the open sound as in English "get". Which, I guess, lends weight to your statement that Zamenhof didn't know how English is pronounced. Certainly he knew Russian.
The Russian o is pronounced differently depending on syllable stress.
as far as modern speakers go, there are definitely wrong and right ways to pronounce the language. here is an example of someone with good pronunciation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eh7UhpeKI0And Lapenna here clearly uses the "get" sound for e and mostly the closed o (as in "go" ) with some positional shortening.
So ignore Zamenhof's other pronunciation guides and stick with the Russian is the way to go?
Benjamino (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-20 21:02:27
if you want direction though, Lapenna's pronunciation is probably the best example to go off of. also you can listen to http://muzaiko.info/ and find other esperanto videos on youtube. really there is no one perfect way to pronounce esperanto, but there are many, many bad ways. (for example, i absolutely do not suggest pronouncing "e" as in "make".)
RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-20 21:22:46
Bruso:The English gives e as in "make" and o as in "not".Yeah. The problem is, which English?
Certainly not the one I speak. For a west coast American, those examples are very incorrect.
Oijos (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-20 22:23:10
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-21 10:08:32
At least it demonstrated that that particular group had a developed idea of what sounded best, though the result may have been confounded with judgements on fluency and voice timbre.
If the same type of experiment could be carried out with larger numbers and a more varied body of voters (say at a Universala Kongreso), the result would be a useful model.
If somebody can explain to me how to post the recording of the winner of the Ramsgate Congress on the Lernu forum, I'll do that, as I think the tech team has archived the recordings.
Perhaps it is technically possible to organize a similar competition through Lernu.
Benjamino (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-21 11:29:49
sudanglo:In the recent Ramsgate congress, some 15 participants recorded their voices and the recordings were played back anonymously for the attendees to vote on as to the most attractive pronunciation. Not a very scientific experiment but there was a clear winner.i would be interested to hear that, or read more about it. obviously i read that Lapenna's pronunciation (among others) was a good model to go off of from John C. Wells' article "Bona kaj malbona prononcadoj", which is reprinted in Boris Kolker's book for progresantoj, "Vojaĝo en Esperanto-Lando". it would be interesting to see the difference (if there is any) between what Akademianoj consider good pronunciation, and what a random sampling of ordinary but sufficiently-progressed Esperanto speakers consider good pronunciation.
on a side note, that article is reprinted here too: http://site.douban.com/esperanto/widget/notes/1234...
Kirilo81 (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-21 12:19:31
sudanglo:If the same type of experiment could be carried out with larger numbers and a more varied body of voters (say at a Universala Kongreso), the result would be a useful model.This work has already been done in the PhD thesis of Oksana Burkina. IIRC it is not published, but abstracts of it have been published in these conference papers and in this festschrift.
If somebody can explain to me how to post the recording of the winner of the Ramsgate Congress on the Lernu forum, I'll do that, as I think the tech team has archived the recordings.
Perhaps it is technically possible to organize a similar competition through Lernu.