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Is there a difference between "lap" and "knees"?

ca, kivuye

Ubutumwa 31

ururimi: English

RiotNrrd (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 22 Nyakanga 2013 15:06:33

pdenisowski:Maybe I'm just being pedantic, but with the exception of one very specific idiom, genuoj never means lap.
Yeah, alright, I'm stepping back from this. When this thread started I just noticed that there was no word for lap in the Lernu vortaro, and tried to fix that using the sources at my disposal. Could be there's no way to fix it.

I'll let you and erinja hash out whether genuoj does or does not mean lap. I don't really have a strong opinion either way.

In the meantime, I'm going to leave the vortaro as it is right now. If someone wants to go in and correct it further, go ahead.

Rugxdoma (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 22 Nyakanga 2013 17:06:42

I think it is a question of decency, that in so many languages we avoid mentioning the specific body part (the vagina) upon which the chilld is actually sitting, so instead we end up speaking about anything from chest to knee. Anyone will understand. In Swedish we can vary the degree of intimacy by choosing either the preposition in or on the knee. We also have a word for the whole V-shaped structure therebetween, but it is also complicated, with various connotations.

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 22 Nyakanga 2013 18:58:50

If you're going to be literal about the part where the child is actually sitting, then "legs" would be the obvious choice. The child is on the parent's legs, not on the parent's genitals.

Obviously context matters, "genuoj" is of course most frequently used to refer simply to knees, in a sentence like "Big Tony is going to bash his knees in if he doesn't pay protection money". But in a situation where a child or pet is sitting on someone's [blank], "knees" is the Esperanto word that usually ends up in that blank.

In the tekstaro I don't believe I was able to find a case of someone or something sitting on someone's "sino", but I did find three or four citations of sitting on someone's "genuoj".

I may have met one or two Esperantists who referred to something sitting on their "kruroj" but I couldn't find any hits for that in the tekstaro so this usage may not be widespread.

I'm glad to give my opinion (like above) but actually I have to say that I don't much care what the dictionary says, or what expression others care to use. It seems to me that "sino" and "genuoj" are equally valid choices and neither one should be deprecated.

pdenisowski (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 22 Nyakanga 2013 20:55:09

RiotNrrd:Yeah, alright, I'm stepping back from this. When this thread started I just noticed that there was no word for lap in the Lernu vortaro, and tried to fix that using the sources at my disposal. Could be there's no way to fix it.
I think you've done the best that anyone could do -- it's not an easy thing to translate for this language pair and I think everyone really appreciates the effort you've put into what is often a thankless task.

Based ln this discussion, I'll also be adding "genuoj" to ESPDIC as "lap" as well -- I agree that "sino" isn't any better for expressing this concept.

Thanks again for all the hard work!

Amike,
Paul

RiotNrrd (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 22 Nyakanga 2013 21:28:46

Even if there really is no direct translation of a particular word, I tend to think that part of the role of a dictionary should be to help the reader at least find an approximation for what they want to say. So it might be worthwhile in the entry for such an English word to say that there is no direct translation, but if you use these words (whatever they are), you'll more-or-less get your point across.

So, in the case of lap, perhaps the entry should explicitly say There is no direct translation of 'lap'. Use 'genuoj' or 'sino' as an approximation.

sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 23 Nyakanga 2013 10:52:16

What about lap-top computer, lap dog, lap dancing and lap belt?

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 23 Nyakanga 2013 14:05:55

Those things would have totally different names in Esperanto.

Most people say "portebla komputilo" for laptop, lapdog would be "hundeto" for me, lap dancing would be "erotika kontakt-dancado" (I have never been to such an establishment but Wikipedia seems to say that "contact dance" is a synonym), a lap belt - are you referring to the lap portion of a safety belt, or are you referring to the band used in weight loss surgery?

Chainy (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 23 Nyakanga 2013 14:18:38

sudanglo:What about lap-top computer, lap dog, lap dancing and lap belt?
sinokomputilo, sinodancado kaj sinozono. See the word 'lap', say 'sino'. Regardless.

(Don't worry, I'm just joking)

Chainy (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 23 Nyakanga 2013 15:01:41

Kontenta ŝafeto sidas sur la sino de Blake Lively

Portebla komputilo estas sur la genuoj de viro.

Somehow I don't think you could interchange 'genuoj' and 'sino' to describe those pictures.

sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 24 Nyakanga 2013 11:12:27

I think. Erinja, that the rules of lap dancing clubs are that the customer should not grope the performer. Maybe the performer is also not permitted to touch the customer, though I can't imagine they would complain.

So Kontakto-danci might not do.

Maybe intim-danci or familiar-danci.

But since striptizi has long since been accepted in Esperanto and Google Translate is flummoxed by 'lap dancer' for all the languages I tried, then perhaps lapdanci, lapdanc being a new root.

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