makis:Just avoid bringing up politics and religion. As you can probably see, it tends to devolve any conversation (or internet thread) when it comes up...

And if someone insults your religious beliefs and calls you and your fellow believers stupid and crazy, don't stand up for what you believe in. Let people spread untruths and stereotypes about you and your beliefs until people are no longer able to distinguish between objective facts and propaganda.

Not standing up to bullying is the same thing as being a bully yourself.

If Esperanto is ever going to become mainstream, then the Esperanto speaking community is going to have to look more like the normal population, and Esperantujo not a refuge for the socially marginalised.

This means that there will always be some weirdo's and freaks among the Esperantists, but hopefully in a much lower percentage than currently so.

sudanglo:If Esperanto is ever going to become mainstream

It's not. It's had almost 150 years to do that and failed.

Of course, Esperanto has had lots of little successes and fulfils its role very well within its niche: it allows people to do all kinds of things they wouldn't necessarily otherwise be able to do and to engage with new cultures and people etc. (So is definitely worth anyone learning!) I'm sure there is diversity in the Esperanto community, and maybe there could be even more, but world domination is never going to happen (and I doubt that it ever could without it becoming a completely different beast). Generally, people want to speak high-status languages, the languages of money and power, and I can't see how Esperanto could become one of those, because money and power are mainly held within certain nation states (or citystates like Dubai, Singapore, London! etc.). Even George Soros won't be around for much longer.

Unless it were to become an official language of the EU, which is still extremely unlikely. But would we want to be associated with a great big bureaucratic institution like that? Probably some would.

sudanglo:If Esperanto is ever going to become mainstream, then the Esperanto speaking community is going to have to look more like the normal population, and Esperantujo not a refuge for the socially marginalised.

Exactly. Frankly, I'm so disgusted by what I've seen posted in the Esperanto-language forums that I wonder why I ever bothered to learn this language. The worst part is that the socially (self-)marginalized are driving away the people who might actually help the movement.

Most of what I see here is people either (a) talking about things they know nothing about based on their own unsupported ideas or random internet postings or (b) people attacking religion and then claiming to be victims of censorship when the religious complain about it.

Since Lernu is really the only active Esperanto language forum on the internet, this means that unless you're willing to put up with this, you have no where else to go but out. And looking at some of the recent exits from this website by people who actually contributed something to the espernato movement (e.g. Chainy, pdenisowski), one can't be very hopeful about the future of Esperanto ... there aren't THAT many people who are willing to make a serious effort to promoting the language.

AlanLadd13:I always wanted to travel and learn about other cultures .. honest opinions of how I would be viewed at a meet up because of this would be appreciated.
Thank You

From what you say, you already have a number of things in common with many people who attend Esperanto gatherings - apart from the language, an interest in travel and learning about other cultures. To get round the problem of anxiety, I suggest that you try something amall to begin with. Just greet someone, with no expectations, and if they respond without hostility, that's a step forward. Later, if you wish, you can use questions to find out whether you do have the interests that you mentioned in common, and see what happens. If either of you don't wish to talk much longer, just politely excuse yourself and move on. Good luck!

Rargos:

makis:Just avoid bringing up politics and religion. As you can probably see, it tends to devolve any conversation (or internet thread) when it comes up...

And if someone insults your religious beliefs and calls you and your fellow believers stupid and crazy, don't stand up for what you believe in. Let people spread untruths and stereotypes about you and your beliefs until people are no longer able to distinguish between objective facts and propaganda.

Not standing up to bullying is the same thing as being a bully yourself.

There's a difference between being bullied and being on the internet. Which is why I don't take any of the threads now active seriously and/or what people say online with a big grain of salt. It's a big pissing match where everyone can hide behind internet anonymity and say things they wouldn't normally.

If this actually happened to you in real life then it would be bullying and this would be a different kind of post.

Otherwise, I'll leave you with XKCD:

http://xkcd.com/386/

makis:There's a difference between being bullied and being on the internet. Which is why I don't take any of the threads now active seriously and/or what people say online with a big grain of salt. It's a big pissing match where everyone can hide behind internet anonymity and say things they wouldn't normally.

I agree with you to a certain extent. The issue is that the Internet has become many American's primary source of information and what people see on the internet has a very strong influence on what people think and believe. There are two issues here:

(1) There seems to be an awful lot of misrepresentations (intentional or not) regarding religion made by people who are self-avowed atheists. "Religions/churches/believes believe/say/do XYZ", where XYZ is at best an over-generalization or at worst is completely wrong ... and never in a good way. I imagine that most of the people posting about the evils of religion here have never spent time in a church/synagogue/mosque or taken the time to speak face to face with actual believers - they simply parrot all the other hostile and inaccurate things they read on the internet.

(2) There are many types of internet postings that are simply not tolerated on most message forums, including Lernu. One can't call homosexuals deviants, minorities lazy or stupid, women inferior to men, etc. (nor should one, by the way). As an (older) American, I strongly object to double standards -- and there is a clear double standard when it comes to who is allowed to criticize whom, in person or on the Internet.

My concern is that if someone doesn't stand up to all the hate and lies being spread about religion on the Internet, the hate and lies will carry over into the "real world" as well.

If you think that what people see on TV, read in the papers, or find on the Internet doesn't influence peoples' real-world behavior, then explain why BILLIONS of dollars are spent on commericals and political campaign ads.

Rargos:The issue is that the Internet has become many American's primary source of information and what people see on the internet has a very strong influence on what people think and believe. There are two issues here:

Depending on it's sources, I would say. Not across the board credibility. i.e. Recognized/legit news outlets versus discussion boards.

(1) There seems to be an awful lot of misrepresentations (intentional or not) regarding religion made by people who are self-avowed atheists. "Religions/churches/believes believe/say/do XYZ", where XYZ is at best an over-generalization or at worst is completely wrong ... and never in a good way. I imagine that most of the people posting about the evils of religion here have never spent time in a church/synagogue/mosque or taken the time to speak face to face with actual believers - they simply parrot all the other hostile and inaccurate things they read on the internet.

(2) There are many types of internet postings that are simply not tolerated on most message forums, including Lernu. One can't call homosexuals deviants, minorities lazy or stupid, women inferior to men, etc. (nor should one, by the way). As an (older) American, I strongly object to double standards -- and there is a clear double standard when it comes to who is allowed to criticize whom, in person or on the Internet.

My concern is that if someone doesn't stand up to all the hate and lies being spread about religion on the Internet, the hate and lies will carry over into the "real world" as well.

If you think that what people see on TV, read in the papers, or find on the Internet doesn't influence peoples' real-world behavior, then explain why BILLIONS of dollars are spent on commericals and political campaign ads.

If you feel that strongly and want to continue pointing out the errors, then bonan ŝancon. But I feel the same way as the XKCD comic: there's a lot of wrong people and wrong ideas out there, especially on the internet - and they'll always be there!

jismith1989:

sudanglo:If Esperanto is ever going to become mainstream

It's not. It's had almost 150 years to do that and failed.

took longer than that for arabic numerals and the metric system.

Rargos:

Benjamino:I'm pretty OK with it, Rargos. Both you and I live in a country where everyone is entitled to express their opinion, no matter how inaccurate or misguided it is

Actually you're not - try standing up in the middle of a meeting at work and saying that you think that homosexuals are deviants or that hispanics are lazy and see how long you keep your job. (Ironically, you could probably say Christians are intolerant bigots and get away with it ...).

I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with homosexuals, hispanics, jews, etc. -- I think there is far too much intolerance in the world. But it's amazing to see how the formerly "oppressed" groups in society have now become the oppressors ....and Esperantujo (at least here at Lernu) is no different.

We don't have meetings at my job, unfortunately! And in my state, employers are allowed to fire you if you say you're gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender. At the moment, I work for a company that is accountable to people outside my state, so luckily they have policies preventing that, but I *still* don't tell anyone at work anything other than "No, I'm not married." Because there is still a lot of de facto discrimination, at least here! The constitution of my state explicitly prohibits same-sex marriage (as of the early 2000s). They actually made a Constitutional amendment AGAINST equality! Can you believe the nerve of these people?

It must be wonderful living wherever you live, and I'm sure you enjoy the benefits on a regular basis. If you feel oppressed, then I suggest you take your own suggestion and stop marginalizing yourself.