kaŝperanto:
I have never been to an esperanto meeting myself (quite hard to find one in the Midwest, or US in general if you're not in a big city),

It's small and not very active, bu there's the Midwest Esperanto meetup group. Right now we just do EO Minecraft meetups, but I'm hoping to schedule a trip to the Omaha aquarium sometime next year. (I'm based in Kansas City)

sudanglo:
Of course, even when the fina venko comes there will still only be a small percentage of Esperanto speakers, since many will still have no need to communicate with someone of a different mother tongue, as is the case now.

Is that so sure though? Often the opportunity creates the need. Before the adoption of Arab numerals, what are now considered very basic calculations were regarded as the exclusive domain of skilled mathematicians.

Now for a more concrete illustration, I know quite a lot of Spanish unemployed graduates who would love to try and get hired in less crisis-ridden countries if they only didn't feel so hopeless about learning a foreign language. Some even go for poorly-paid jobs in Spanish language friendly Morroco over staying jobless and whithout a future in the supposedly more developped home country. How many of them would at least try to learn seemingly easier Esperanto if that could raise their employability in economically more decent lands in any way?

FYI if anyone wants to get deep into a discussion on Raŭmismo versus finvenkismo, please start a new thread about that (or reopen an old thread).

The relevance to the OP's question, Erinja, is that under a Rauxmist philosophy, there would be no reason to protest about the concentration of weirdo's in the movement.

But for those who think that Esperanto should be taken seriously, a preponderance of stranguloj is at least a deterrent to the language's acceptance (scaring off new recruits, and inviting ridicule), if not intrinsically a bad thing.

One of the great plus points of Lernu is that it attracts isolated learners with no previous contact with other Esperanto speakers, thereby helping to redress the balance in the Esperanto-speaking population towards that of the population at large.

Unfortunately the current make-up of the Esperantistaro can be a powerful reason to Kabei.

I wouldn't argue for intolerance, but we do need to show the rest of the world that we are not just a bunch of cranks.

I know quite a lot of Spanish unemployed graduates who would love to try and get hired in less crisis-ridden countries if they only didn't feel so hopeless about learning a foreign language

Yes, that would be lovely if there were truly no language restrictions of the migration of labour, so that one could work as readily in another European country as Americans can seek employment in another US state.

However that would require a massive penetration of Esperanto. Hardly comfortable if the boss speaks Esperanto but none of your work-mates do, and you are completely lost in doing your day-to-day shopping, and understanding the terms of your rent agreement.

Although the EU is set up to allow people to live and work freely in any member state (as I understand it) the existence of 23 official languages hardly make that a practical proposition.

Sometimes it seems to me that the whole EU concept is as fantastical and removed from reality as some think of Esperanto.

sudanglo:The relevance to the OP's question, Erinja, is that under a Rauxmist philosophy, there would be no reason to protest about the concentration of weirdo's in the movement.

Sorry, I con't really understand how the presence of weird people relates at all to Raumism or Finvenkism. In my book, weird people are drawn to Esperanto because honestly, you have to be a bit strange to learn a language that so few people speak, and also because people with few social skills look to join a community that will welcome them. Small communities tend to be welcoming because they are glad to have another member, and also communities built around tolerance and acceptance are more accepting of strange people as well. Esperanto is built around tolerance and acceptance, and religious communities are as well, which is why I've personally found a slightly higher than normal concentration of strange people at my synagogue than elsewhere. If someone is a Jew, you accept and welcome them, even if they're strange, because you don't turn away a Jew from a synagogue. Similarly, if you're an Esperanto club, and someone is an Esperanto speaker, you accept and welcome them, even if they're strange, because where is an Esperanto speaker going to go, other than to an Esperanto club? Unless the person is actively hostile and dangerous to others, I've never heard of someone getting banned from an Esperanto club.

It's such a difficult thing. Drive away a member of a club because someone doesn't like him or her -- it sounds really cold. But you risk losing the person who doesn't like the person, who is no longer willing to attend club events because of the person's presence. The same annoying person may quietly be driving people away for years, and you'd never know it.

erinja:It's such a difficult thing. Drive away a member of a club because someone doesn't like him or her -- it sounds really cold. But you risk losing the person who doesn't like the person, who is no longer willing to attend club events because of the person's presence. The same annoying person may quietly be driving people away for years, and you'd never know it.

The same can be said for extreme leftists (which to extreme rightists is basically anyone left of center, unfortunately). I've had more than one person write to me (being what they see as a fellow rightist, even though I'm actually more of a Libertarian with conservative leanings) saying they are dropping Esperanto because they are sick and tired of being marginalized and demonized by supposed "community" members. It seems "tolerance" is the program of the day unless what's asked to be tolerated is a person's being conservative. Something this "community" (both E-ujo AND Lernu) should keep in mind if we want this language going forward.

Yes Orthohawk. The preponderance of left-wingers is just another aspect in respect of which the Esperanto-speaking community is not representative of the population at large.

And Erinja, the philosophical divide between Raumist and Finvenkistoj is highly relevant.

Nobody would have a leg to stand on in complaining that there were to many geeks in the Klingon-istaro. Learning Klingon obviously just for Trekkies. But the finvenkista position is that Esperanto is for everybody not just the current breed of Esperantists.

In contrast Rauxmists have given up on the purpose of Esperanto and relegated it to a similar status to that of Klingon - just a harmless eccentric hobby, for people who want to concentrate on doing their own thing with like-minded people.

Ultimately we need everyone to keep the language alive, finvenkists and raŭmists. The divide between them can be overstressed too, as both regard Esperanto events as pleasant social gatherings and by socialising with people from other countries both groups contribute in building a really international culture. Some level of like-mindedness is also necessary to keep a community together so there is no arm in that either. The acceptation of people with different political views is desirable yet hard to achieve -- inside and outside of the Esperanto community -- but some awareness-raising work can and should be done.

sudanglo:In contrast Rauxmists have given up on the purpose of Esperanto and relegated it to a similar status to that of Klingon - just a harmless eccentric hobby, for people who want to concentrate on doing their own thing with like-minded people.

I fall in a middle ground and I don't have strong feelings one way or the other on the Raumist/Finvenkist thing, but I think you're being quite unfair and insulting to the Raumist side, here.

orthohawk:It seems "tolerance" is the program of the day unless what's asked to be tolerated is a person's being conservative. Something this "community" (both E-ujo AND Lernu) should keep in mind if we want this language going forward.

Depends on what you mean by conservative. I doubt that any Esperantist would care if you believe in a conservative fiscal policy, so I assume you are talking about social issues. Social issues are a difficult point when it comes to tolerance, because "conservative" views on social issues often come across as intolerant to those who disagree with them. For example, if a conservative says "what those X people do, it ought not to be allowed because my religion forbids it/because it isn't traditional to do that in this country/because nature didn't intend for that to be done/because I don't like it for myself and I don't want it for others/[whatever other reason]" -- this comes off sounding intolerant. And in a society where tolerance is highly prized, if you come off sounding intolerant, then people don't tolerate you. Strange circular thing, there.

Esperanto has a very "celebrate our differences, learn from each other, diversity is great, it's ok if you're different than others" type of culture. To put it mildly, that is not the vibe I get from some conservatives, and if you go around saying "different and diverse is ok but only to a point and I will tell you where that point is", then you will definitely offend some people in Esperanto.

I will add that at Esperanto events, things aren't so heated as they can get on this forums. In a split-second, one or two hot-heads can turn a previously-friendly discussion into an acrimonious debate. Esperanto events are more like the friendly discussion. You don't want to go to the meeting of the Esperanto atheists - don't go. You don't want to go to the Sunday morning Esperanto church service - don't go. I personally never heard anyone being criticized for going or not going to these things.

Plus, sometimes you just have to deal with the fact that Esperanto brings lots of different people together. I've run into lots of viewpoints I didn't like at Esperanto events - people saying things that I thought were not only wrong but also offensive, particularly regarding various things in the US. You tell them nicely that in your experience, this thing isn't the case, and probably they won't believe you, but then you just drop it and let it go, because you probably won't convince them, and you will only create bad feeling if you keep fighting it. Honestly this is what Esperanto is for -- talking to people with ALL different opinions, including ones you don't agree with. I've learned a lot about how people think about different things in different countries, from their political opinions to their local old-wives tales, and though I've sometimes thought they were flat-out wrong, it's also a fascinating insight into their culture.