spreecamper:For me the sound of some language is very important that's why I not feel complete comfortable with Esperanto. Its a pity that Zamenhof didn't take care more of additional sound elements inside Esperanto.

I think that this is another example of native habits and patterns influencing how we regard this or that language. For example, Slavic palatalized consonants are almost impossible for me as a non-Slavic speaker to master as an adult. I wonder how any human mouth can master them. Nevertheless, I also acknowledge that the two sounds of English, which are so common in my language, are also almost impossibly difficult for many adults around the world. (They do occur in a few other languages, but not all.)

Unfortunately, perhaps, there may be no constructed auxiliary language which will be equally easy to all adult learners around the world. The set of all sounds and sound patterns common to nearly all languages on earth may be too small to make a workable language (my speculation). That means that whether we like it or not, someone, somewhere, somehow is going to have to expend some effort to deal with something not familiar to him/her. Sad but true.

Are the sounds of Esperanto optimal? Does that question even make any sense? Zamenhof made his choices, and if we are going to learn and use Esperanto, we just have to live with them. Those who cannot or are not willing to do so are free to learn and use something else.

bartlett22183:I think that this is another example of native habits and patterns influencing how we regard this or that language. For example, Slavic palatalized consonants are almost impossible for me as a non-Slavic speaker to master as an adult. I wonder how any human mouth can master them.

Yes, I very well understand that 'desperation of how to remove the knot of the tongue to speak Slavish'. But it seems not that difficult. In Slavic languages letter L and R seem to bring vocal sound into the word. Then 'prst' and 'smrt' are loosing its scare of how to pronounce them.

"... Syllabic l and r typically stay between two consonants (e.g. p-r-st = a finger, sm-r-t = death, ...) and are written using preceding auxiliary character "jor" as 'l=ъл and 'r=ър in order to create syllable..."

bartlett22183:Nevertheless, I also acknowledge that the two sounds of English, which are so common in my language, are also almost impossibly difficult for many adults around the world.

Same with German 'ü' Umlaut.

bartlett22183:Unfortunately, perhaps, there may be no constructed auxiliary language which will be equally easy to all adult learners around the world. The set of all sounds and sound patterns common to nearly all languages on earth may be too small to make a workable language (my speculation).

Hhm, I believe in the impossibility but I also can live with compromises. For me some foreign language also should hold some excotic left.

bartlett22183:That means that whether we like it or not, someone, somewhere, somehow is going to have to expend some effort to deal with something not familiar to him/her. Sad but true.

I depends on number of used source languages. As more source languages are used, as more that learning efforts could be balanced. I'm not sure if that technical feature of 'mass sourceing' (i.e. Lidepla.org, Unish.org) helps to fine tune, dock and spread that regarding conlang to regarding audiences. But its interesting experiment. That kind of mass sourcing conlangs were created by extensive use of linguistic databases which could extract shared language features much more easier than some polyglott human could do.

bartlett22183:Are the sounds of Esperanto optimal? Does that question even make any sense?

If that conlang is intended to used for spoken conversation, of course.

bartlett22183:Zamenhof made his choices, and if we are going to learn and use Esperanto, we just have to live with them.

Hhm. Who knows how next generation of Esperanto speakers will decide.

bartlett22183:Those who cannot or are not willing to do so are free to learn and use something else.

Yes, of course. Another strategy is to learn basics only and stay like eternal beginner whole life.

spreecamper:

bartlett22183:Those who cannot or are not willing to do so are free to learn and use something else.

Yes, of course. Another strategy is to learn basics only and stay like eternal beginner whole life.

To be sure. But is this bad? There are many people who learn a bit of this or a bit of that foreign language in their everyday circumstances (where speakers of dissimilar languages come into contact), even if they do not master the other languages completely. Similarly, there may be esperante eternaj komencantoj who learn a bit of Esperanto but never really master it. If Esperanto is to be truly a worldwide international auxiliary language, at what point do we simply wave our hands and dismiss the troubles of those who remain struggling all their lives?

bartlett22183:

spreecamper:

bartlett22183:Those who cannot or are not willing to do so are free to learn and use something else.

Yes, of course. Another strategy is to learn basics only and stay like eternal beginner whole life.

To be sure. But is this bad?

If it fulfills the purpose, then not. I'm far away to be proud of it but I have to confess I'm eternal beginner of Esperanto. Maybe my personal advantage is that I also can enjoy 'silently' some Esperanto Youth event like FESTO and JES. Okay thats not really true because there are lot of German and English natives around I could and talk to if I 'feel lonely' due to not proper Esperanto language proficiency. But even in German or English during that conversation we everytime speak about Esperanto matters. Thats really cool/mojosa. During participating at several Esperanto Youth events in Europe I every time feel at home again. Sola song perfectly express that feeling of being home even if somebody is lazy eternal beginner of Esperanto. Its by distance the most popular song at European Esperanto Youth events. I would name that song some typical song of how some 'backpacker is coming home everywhere' song.

spreecamper:

bartlett22183:

spreecamper:

bartlett22183:Those who cannot or are not willing to do so are free to learn and use something else.

Yes, of course. Another strategy is to learn basics only and stay like eternal beginner whole life.

To be sure. But is this bad?

If it fulfills the purpose, then not. I'm far away to be proud of it but I have to confess I'm eternal beginner of Esperanto. Maybe my personal advantage is that I also can enjoy 'silently' some Esperanto Youth event like FESTO and JES. Okay thats not really true because there are lot of German and English natives around I could and talk to if I 'feel lonely' due to not proper Esperanto language proficiency. But even in German or English during that conversation we everytime speak about Esperanto matters. Thats really cool/mojosa. During participating at several Esperanto Youth events in Europe I every time feel at home again. Sola song perfectly express that feeling of being home even if somebody is lazy eternal beginner of Esperanto. Its by distance the most popular song at European Esperanto Youth events. I would name that song some typical song of how some 'backpacker is coming home everywhere' song.

Aren't we all the 'eternal student' in anything we learn even after achieving a higher level? I am a musician; I will be/have been learning all my life as I have been a student of Esperanto ever since learning 'Baa Baa Safo' from my Grandmother when I was very young. At various times throughout my life I have taken courses, worked through various Esperanto books and am always interested in developments, the people who are learning Esperanto and those who have achieved a facility to enable them to converse with anyone anywhere who also speaks Esperanto. There are those who say it is not worthwhile but maybe we are looking at Esperanto the wrong way? Who couldn't be interested in a language that allowed the writer/speaker to make up their own words starting with a root word? A language that makes knowing adverb from adjective from noun so easy? Even IF an individual does not want to become an International Speaker there is always the fun of creating words - Esperanto is the greatest WORD GAME ever created!