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Orientation/Attraction Words?

di Cyril957, 16 aprile 2014

Messaggi: 41

Lingua: English

caltrans (Mostra il profilo) 03 maggio 2015 10:09:14

Saw this thread a few days ago but couldn't post because of my new account status, and in the meantime have been doing my own research (or at least trying). I'm not sure if it's already been addressed, but would anyone in this thread know the sort of... connotation behind the word "kviro"? I've noticed it's not in a lot of dictionaries and is a sort of informal substitute for "queer," but I couldn't tell you how widely it's used. I personally like how the word queer works in English as a sort of self-identifier for someone in the LGBT community and use it pretty often, so I figure a similar placeholder in Esperanto would be just as convenient.

Also, should words and terminology for trans/nonbinary genders also be brought up here? Or would I be better off making a separate thread for that discussion?

RiotNrrd (Mostra il profilo) 04 maggio 2015 00:44:30

Alkanadi:
tommjames:I have absolutely no idea where the accusation of sexism comes from.
Neither do I. I was really shocked about that...
leporinjo apologized for losing her patience. This is an unproductive line of discussion. I suggest we move on.

kaŝperanto (Mostra il profilo) 04 maggio 2015 21:41:34

Alkanadi:
Yah. You are 100% right. It makes things more difficult and causes confusion. This is one of the cool things about Esperanto: You can take it literally (maybe, not too literally as I just learned).

I think if it is full of idioms then it isn't beneficial for the language.

Part of the problem with natural languages is the cultural weightiness of the language. I have met so many ESL students that can speak English but they can't understand so many things we say. For example, "We can kill two birds will one stone". They can guess the meaning but they really struggle with it.

These common phrases make it so hard on people who try to communicate in English.
I think the first time I ever saw that phrase was "mi fajfas pri tio" or something similar, and it kind of reminded me of "Nero fiddled while Rome burned" (i.e. he didn't give a s____ okulumo.gif )

One habit I've picked up is to notice odd expressions like this and assume they are an idiom for something. Even in the US we have varying idioms depending on where you're from and how old you are. Some of these make at least some logical sense. If I were to see someone committing a violent murder while whistling I would not be wrong to assume that they don't care/it doesn't bother them. I'd say that to "kill two birds with one stone" is has an obvious meaning if it is used correctly within context.

Those are at least far more decipherable than "She is pulling my leg", "You spilled the beans", or "Break a leg". I would never use these in translation or with a non-native English speaker. According to Wikipedia those are called "opaque idioms". The wiki article has a rather interesting section on the literal translations from many languages of phrases similar to English "kicked the bucket". Apparently death involves kicking things, taking off your shoes, and doing odd things with spoons. ridego.gif

As for the original subject, I think that perhaps if there is no obvious single word for your particular leanings it is an indication that you should quit restricting yourself. While it might be possible to make a language where every possible meaning/sentence consists of one (very long) word, it is hardly practical. Any classification is still a broad generalization of the truth. Even if you come up with a fancy word, it will only be useful if many people use and understand it. One strength of Esperanto is that many words/classifications are more literal descriptions than they are new words.

Also, at what point do you distinguish personal preference from the broad classification of your sexuality? Do I get my own word for enjoying holding hands and being fond of redheads? okulumo.gif

nornen (Mostra il profilo) 04 maggio 2015 21:48:19

IMHO, "fajfi pri io" is a direct loan from German and opaque to most Esperantist who don't speak German (I don't know if "auf etwas pfeifen" also exists in other languages). I therefore would not use it, or at least I would not expect the listener to understand it.

Another opaque German (maybe Polish and Russian, too, I don't know) import is elsxalti and ensxalti (ausschalten and einschalten).

erinja (Mostra il profilo) 04 maggio 2015 22:50:39

I use "fajfi pri", no problem. I probably would not use it in a construct, though. The first time I heard it, it sounded strange to me, but I quickly understood it through context. You need a context for it, if you were unfamiliar with the expression and someone came to you and said "Mi estas auxt-prifajfema", you probably wouldn't take it to mean that they don't care about cars.

Esperanto has few idioms but I don't think it was ever intended to be totally idiom-free. Zamenhof gave us the Proverbaro for a reason, specifically, to give us our own native set of idioms and sayings. Some of the "proverbs" are proverbs in the usual sense of the word ("Vorto sona estas plej admona", etc) and some really are just suggested idiomatic usages for the language ("vole-nevole", etc). Some of that last category ("fordormi la okazon" ) have an obvious meaning, and some leave me clueless. Perhaps someone can explain "plenblovi la lipojn", for example.

Tempodivalse (Mostra il profilo) 04 maggio 2015 23:08:41

I skimmed through the Proverbaro the other day, and it struck me that the meanings of most of the proverbs are readily apparent on a literal reading (and it would help if these quotes were placed in context).

I think this is a good standard to hold idiomatic expressions to - if a literal interpretation and surrounding context would leave a listener confused, then better avoid it.

Even with this limitation, there is still a lot of creative room.

Alkanadi (Mostra il profilo) 05 maggio 2015 07:03:03

kaŝperanto:Also, at what point do you distinguish personal preference from the broad classification of your sexuality? Do I get my own word for enjoying holding hands and being fond of redheads? okulumo.gif
Good point. I also prefer simplicity. Life is complicated enough.

Alkanadi (Mostra il profilo) 05 maggio 2015 07:08:05

erinja:if you were unfamiliar with the expression and someone came to you and said "Mi estas auxt-prifajfema", you probably wouldn't take it to mean that they don't care about cars.
That is exactly how I understand it. It seems as though this expression means that you don't care about cars.

So, for clarification, auxt-prifajfema means that you like any type of car???

erinja (Mostra il profilo) 05 maggio 2015 15:19:12

Alkanadi:So, for clarification, auxt-prifajfema means that you like any type of car???
That's the question, right? Maybe when I think of cars I am so happy that I whistle, or maybe I am so impressed when I see the engineering that goes into them, I whistle in awe. Or maybe I whistle because I like every kind of car, or maybe I whistle because I don't care about cars at all.

"prifajfi" usually means not to care so actually, when I devised "auxt-prifajfema", I meant not caring about any kind of car whatsoever, analogously to someone's suggestion of "seksprifajfa" earlier in the thread. But that's the problem with taking an idiom too far, you lose clarity.

Alkanadi (Mostra il profilo) 05 maggio 2015 16:07:29

erinja:Or maybe I whistle because I like every kind of car, or maybe I whistle because I don't care about cars at all.
Now I am very confused. Anyway, no big deal. When I hear an Esperantist talking about whistling, I will know that they either really like something, or they really don't care for something. It is something that excites them or bothers them.

Anyway, not a big deal.

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