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Pies and Pasties

door sudanglo, 28 april 2014

Berichten: 22

Taal: English

sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 28 april 2014 12:28:36

How does Esperanto distinguish between:

Pies, Pasties, Pasta, Pastries, and Paste

EldanarLambetur (Profiel tonen) 28 april 2014 13:57:13

I'll have a go:

These are ones that seem to be in dictionaries:

paste / dough = pasto
pasta = pastaĵo
pie = pasteĉo

These are ones that I've had a go at making words for

pasties (savoury food wrapped in folded pastry) = faldpastaĵoj
pastries (sweet pastry dessert) = dolĉpastaĵoj

NJ Esperantist (Profiel tonen) 28 april 2014 17:47:14

EldanarLambetur:I'll have a go:

These are ones that seem to be in dictionaries:

paste / dough = pasto
pasta = pastaĵo
pie = pasteĉo

These are ones that I've had a go at making words for

pasties (savoury food wrapped in folded pastry) = faldpastaĵoj
pastries (sweet pastry dessert) = dolĉpastaĵoj
I've often thought of a pie, the kind with fruit in it, as a torto.

erinja (Profiel tonen) 28 april 2014 19:34:36

Unfortunately, even we English speakers don't agree on this topic. An American "pie" would almost never be a pasteĉo (a "pasteĉo" would likely be called a pastry in American English), and something like a Cornish pasty would almost never be called a "pie" here.

The pie issue is tricky in Esperanto. I have had quite a few debates with Esperanto friends from other countries on the definition of a "torto" versus a "kuko"

Bottom line -- it seems to me, from my native-English perspective, that a torto is OBVIOUSLY a pie (as in, layers of pastry surrounding a filling of meat or fruit or whatever), and a kuko is OBVIOUSLY a cake, something more like a rich bready thing, like a chocolate cake or whatever.

My European friends find it equally TOTALLY OBVIOUS that a "kuko" is layers of pastry surrounding a filling of fruit or whateve, and a torto is OBVIOUSLY something fancy like a chocolate cake, more bready.

This lead to an amusing problem when a story was written by an English speaker, speaking of a lemon cake (citrona kuko) and an apple pie (poma torto), and the illustrations, drawn by a European, came back showing a lemon pie and an apple cake. I am beginning to think that there is no middle ground on this issue, and perhaps we should cease to talk about cakes and pies in Esperanto, because it seems like no one will ever convince anyone, and it has the net effect of trying to convince someone that their political party is wrong and they should switch to the opposite party. The only possible solution to such a case would seem to be, stop talking about politics!

(I am joking but still -- no joke -- I do sometimes feel like I can't talk about cakes and pies in Esperanto when in Europe, because people will understand the opposite of what I mean)

NJ Esperantist (Profiel tonen) 28 april 2014 22:59:02

Thanks Erinja. That clears up why in Mazi en Gondolando part II they make a giant cake and call it a torto. Reminds me of the dificulty in translating the word 'cookie'.

Kristal (Profiel tonen) 29 april 2014 03:32:55

This question reminds me why so many people say that we in America don't speak English. I don't use the word "pasties" because its more common meaning, where I live, is bawdy and unrelated to food. I'm originally from the Los Angeles area and I am more likely to use the South American word "empanadas" when describing hand-held pastry enclosing meat filling. I remember seeing Cornish-Pasties advertised at a roadside eatery in a small town, the hyphenated description helped to to distinguish the meaning from things that are pasted on. Maybe using the name of the place of origin could help in other languages. Goodness knows we don't speak English where I come from and my neighbors spoke Mexican far more often than Spanish!

Kirilo81 (Profiel tonen) 29 april 2014 09:16:25

Have a look at the official and authorative dictionaries:

Universala Vortaro:
kuk' gâteau | cookey [Akademia korekto: cake] | Kuchen | пирогъ | pierożek [Akademia korekto: ciastko]

tort' tourte | tart | Torte | тортъ | tort
PIV:
kuk/o Franda bakaĵo el diversaspeca pasto kun sukero

tort/o Bakita plado, konsistanta el tortofundo kun garnaĵo diversspeca (fruktoj, legomoj k.a.) ligita per io pasteca aŭ solidiĝanta (kremaĵo, kompoto ks)
So it basically works like in German: A kuko is something sweet you bake as a whole, possibly with icing or minor decoration -something like this-, while a torto consists of multiple levels of baked dough and cream -something like this.

sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 29 april 2014 10:57:24

Surely, Kirilo, the thing that you illustrate as a torto would be called a gâteau by the French, and a cake by the English. Therefore, according to the UV, a kuko.

Bruso (Profiel tonen) 29 april 2014 12:06:35

Kristal:This question reminds me why so many people say that we in America don't speak English. I don't use the word "pasties" because its more common meaning, where I live, is bawdy and unrelated to food.
However, if you'd ever spent much time in the upper peninsula of Michigan, you'd never think of pasties as anything but the original Cornish meaning.

Kirilo81 (Profiel tonen) 29 april 2014 13:40:02

sudanglo:Surely, Kirilo, the thing that you illustrate as a torto would be called a gâteau by the French, and a cake by the English. Therefore, according to the UV, a kuko.
One must consider that Zamhofs command of French and especially English was not good, so the agreement between German and Russian (I have to investigate about the Polish pierożek, today it has nothing to do with a pie or cake) is of greater weight, but I haven't checked the Zamenhofian usage in the Tekstaro yet.

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