A litany of other questions
od ASCarroll, 1. svibnja 2014.
Poruke: 228
Jezik: English
Clarence666 (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 08:46:58
AllenHartwell:Tiu estas mia amiko Joyce. Easy.Bad answer. The English sentence boasts only with friendship, but your "solution" also with male sex. So the matching English version would be rather "This is my male friend Joyce.". You failed to solve the puzzle.
Malgxusta respondo. La Angla frazo fanfaronas nur pri amikeco, sed via "solvo" ankaux pri maskla sekso. Do la kongrua Angla frazo estus pli bone "This is my male friend Joyce.". Vi malsukcesis solvi la enigmon.
> Your comments on German are totally out of line, by the
> way. It works that way because, guess what, that's
> how people have spoken it for thousands of years.
Right, but they started writing absurd books about "sex justice in language" only 30 years ago. And the present language much differs from the language from 30 years ago. Just pick some texts and compare. The German community lacks, guess what, a usable Academy (like Esperanto does), instead, the infamous "feminazi" groups control the language. AFAIK the last language reform occurred 1911, since then, nobody, except "feminazi" groups, ever succeeded to change anything.
The decision was made on this way and this is the way Esperanto can only be, according to the Fundamento and the Declaration themselves.Imagine Germany with an unchangable constitution from 1887.
Imagu Germaniujon kun nesxangxebla konstitucio de 1887.
The Esperanto word for father is patro. The word for mother is patrino.What is the Esperanto word for "parent" ? Well, there is none. So maybe one should NOT throw away English in favor of Esperanto just now.
AllenHartwell (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 09:01:59
bryku (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 09:24:58
Clarence666:What is the Esperanto word for "parent" ? Well, there is none. So maybe one should NOT throw away English in favor of Esperanto just now.In fact there are such words in Esperanto, if you know it well enough:
naskinto
generinto
gepatro
familiestro
No need for word-monsters like patriĉo...
Bruso (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 09:24:59
AllenHartwell:You could also say gepatro.The interesting thing about gepatro is:
Although Zamenhof only used ge- words in the plural, the existence of a plural implies a singular, ĉu ne?
Clarence666 (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 09:37:27
Duonbona ideo.
> You could also say gepatro.
Ne funcias (vidu malsupre).
> But it would be best simply to say patro or patrino.
Tio ne funkcias.
> In fact there are such words in Esperanto, if you know it well enough:
> naskinto generinto
Ne funkcias pri adoptaj EN:"parents".
> gepatro
Ne funkcias. "ge" asertas precipe kunfandigxon de du seksoj.
> familiestro
Duonbona ideo. Alia: "malidpersono"
> No need for word-monsters like patriĉo...
If there is a monster approching, then it's the idea to prefix all words with "ge" : geesperantistoj, gesamideanoj, geamikoj, gehundoj, gegepardoj, gegeologoj, gegestapoanoj, ...
> Although Zamenhof only used ge- words in the plural, the existence
> of a plural implies a singular, ĉu ne?
gepatro -> unu persono havanta na ambaux du seksoj kaj kapabla / devigita kunfandigi ilin.
bryku (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 09:53:54
Clarence666:>...Go to sleep, apparently you need it.
morfran (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 11:47:32
bryku:naskintonaskinto: Normally written naskintino, it can logically only refer to the mother. A naskiginto (“sire”, “progenitor”) can really only be the father.
generinto
gepatro
familiestro
generinto: This could work well as “parent”, though its literalness as “begetter” might limit its scope. (A “parent” can also be someone in the role of parent as protector and caregiver, which is how duonpatro makes any sense, but a “begetter” is only a begetter.)
Anyway, adding in to generinto would certainly make it unambiguously “mother”, if one were so inclined. If only there were something to make it unambiguously “father”...
ge-: Alas, this refers only to groups consisting of both sexes, so while gefratoj is “siblings”, gefrato is not “sibling”. And to change the meaning of ge- or any other Fundamentism at this late date, of course, would be the very sort of thing so many have been decrying these last twelve pages.
familiestro: “Head of household”. Not the same thing.
Bruso (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 11:52:58
Clarence666:Really? So then:
gepatro -> unu persono havanta na ambaux du seksoj kaj kapabla / devigita kunfandigi ilin.
gepatroj -> multaj personoj havanta na ambaux du seksoj kaj kapabla / devigita kunfandigi ilin.
(Are you using "na" as the non-canonical accusative? I can't really figure out what it's doing there. Maybe we need a thread on naismo?
) morfran (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 12:06:51
bryku:No need for word-monsters like patriĉo...Sweet Jesus...
Novatago has suggested that I repeat my explanation of how iĉ works so often that I can hardly deny being an iĉ evangelist. I can certainly see how it would look that way. But apparently if I don’t explain it once every page, everyone goes back to railing against the the threat of patriĉo, so here we go again:
Iĉ indicates the male gender. It’s use would be limited to those words that are either unambiguously neuter or ambiguously neuter or male. Patro is by definition a masculine word; there would therefore be no patriĉo.
Granted, there are apparently some that do want to use iĉ to reanalyze masculine words as gender-neutral. I haven’t looked into it since I first encountered iĉ proposals back in the late 90s, and didn’t see any calls for gender reanalysis then, but I just read a Wikipedia article that makes it seem basic to the iĉist platform, though its cited source, the PMEG, doesn’t make the same claim:
PMEG:IĈ. “Virbesto, viro, masklo”. Unu el multaj proponoj de sufikso por montri viran sekson. IĈ estas nun la plej populara propono de tia sufikso, sed ĝi estas nur eksperimente uzata: bovo → *boviĉo* = “virbovo”, kato → *katiĉo* = “virkato”, kuracisto → *kuracistiĉo* = “vira kuracisto”. IĈ parencas al la sufikso ĈJ, same kiel IN parencas al la sufikso NJ. Oni uzu vira aŭ prefiksecan VIR.Otherwise, an interesting article, particularly in its account of how there was originally no word for “male”, and of how modern vir- was originally a suffix, but was changed in response to popular criticism. While we in here assert the immutability of the language’s canon, it seems there were at least some changes being made at the canon level as late as the 1920s.
Iuj ekstremistoj (emphasis mine) volas uzi IĈ ankaŭ ĉe viraj radikoj, kies signifon ili do volas ŝanĝi al sekse neŭtra: patro (neŭtra) → *patriĉo* = “patro”, knabo (neŭtra) → *knabiĉo* = “knabo”, viro (neŭtra) → *viriĉo* = “viro”. Enkonduko de tiel drastaj signifoŝanĝoj de oftaj kaj firme enradikiĝintaj vortoj estus neakceptebla (kaj neefektivigebla) reformo de la lingvo. Por esti konsekvenca oni devus tiam neŭtrigi ankaŭ inajn radikojn: damo (neŭtra) → *damino*, *damiĉo*; nimfo (neŭtra) → *nimfino*, *nimfiĉo*; putino (neŭtra!) → *putinino*, *putiniĉo*. Tiaj ŝanĝoj estas eĉ malpli efektivigeblaj.
Anyway, if one wants to put an end to the iĉ proposals, one will have to direct one’s argument against the more conservative approach, not the already and easily refuted extremist one. To do otherwise is to attack a strawman that non-extremist iĉ-proposers have nothing to do with, and the iĉ thing will never go away.
orthohawk (Prikaz profila) 8. svibnja 2014. 12:50:40
morfran:But the proposal is not to change the meaning/use of ge- but rather to expand it. It will still mean "both sexes taken together" when used on a plural root. But with the expanded meaning, its use on a singular root will refer to the epicene counterpart.
ge-: Alas, this refers only to groups consisting of both sexes, so while gefratoj is “siblings”, gefrato is not “sibling”. And to change the meaning of ge- or any other Fundamentism at this late date, of course, would be the very sort of thing so many have been decrying these last twelve pages.