bryku:Go to sleep, apparently you need it

Done, now I'm back ! | Plenumita, jen mi revenas !

> this is the English forum. Please include English translations if
> you want to put lengthy Esperanto

I do. A gift to those who haven't even started to learn.

> "La maestra nos dio dos tareas y el maestro nos dio una."

> "The teacher gave us two assignments,
> and the teacher gave us one."

> You will need some additional words or constructs
> in English to convey the same meaning.

No problem:

> "The female teacher gave us two assignments,
> and the male teacher gave us one."

Use SEX words if you want to talk about SEX. Use MORE words if you talk about MORE stuff.

> "The esperantist teacher gave us two assignments,
> and the esperanto-unaware teacher gave us one."

[1]: "víctima" is of feminine gender (genus), but doesn't imply sex (sexus). "María (female) fue la víctima" and "Pedro (male) fue la víctima" are both correct.

Interesting. Another example would be "cantante". Spanish is usually more sexistic, but there are special cases where it's better than DE or EO.

I use "amiko" as gender-neutral. I only say "amikino" or "viramiko" when I feel the need to specify, for whatever reason. In my usage, "mia amiko Joyce" doesn't mean that Joyce is a man.

Good. If all Esperantists did that way ...

> in Spanish, a group of eight girls and a boy is
> grammatically masculine

I suspect this problem is same in all the "different" laguages

I personally find it e.g. inconvenient that when I am reading an article about a murderer, that I have to read half the article until I find a "he/she" or "his/her" in order to know whether the murderer was a man or a woman

What's the benefit of knowing the sex of a murderer? | Kio estas la avantagxo de scii la sekson de la murdisto?

morfran:

AllenHartwell:...

Oh, Allen. With each new over-the-top, quasi-fascistic post you make, I remember how much I miss the Dwight Shrute character from The Office. Keep ‘em coming!

Because repeatedly calling me a fascist is polite... All I'm trying to do here is save Esperanto from those who would render it meaningless. Possibly I've been somewhat... zealous... for the English forum, but it's not like I'm alone in wanting to keep Esperanto pure and conforming to the established standard. I've already mentioned why a few times. A global second language understood by everyone everywhere who's taken the time to learn the Fundamento is pointless if it fractures into dialects that diverge from both the Fundamento and each other.

You're right. It is a living language. But it's also a language that must remain standard. That is exactly why the Akademio was formed: to authorize new words and prevent drifting the language from drifting away from its base. Personally I don't think it has quite enough power, but I'm entirely aware that other Esperantists aren't far sighted enough care quite as much about the interna ideo or linguistic purity.

AllenHartwell:
You're right. It is a living language. But it's also a language that must remain standard. That is exactly why the Akademio was formed: to authorize new words and prevent drifting the language from drifting away from its base. Personally I don't think it has quite enough power, but I'm entirely aware that other Esperantists aren't far sighted enough care quite as much about the interna ideo or linguistic purity.

In the past, the Esperantists, not the Akademio or any other language authority, have

- started using "familia nomo" and "individua nomo" because the litteral translation for "last name" and "first name" weren't culturally neutral (the family name comes first in some countries).
- developped over time the concise style that Esperanto has today, prefering "jeskaze" to "en kazo de konsento", "tutmonde" to "en la tuta mondo", "ĉu nur mi ŝatas ĝin?" to "ĉu mi estas la ununura, kiu ŝatas ĝin?", etc.
- adopted the much more Esperanto-like "televidilo", "interreto" and "komputilo", even though "televizio", "interneto" and "komputero" existed at first
- developped words that reflect the uniqueness of Esperanto culture such as "krokodili" (to speak one's national language in presence of foreign Esperantists)
- rejected most attempts to introduce new affixes and prepositions, except those they felt were really useful such as -end- (= which has to be ...)
- started using affixes as stand-alone words, proving how cleverly and creatively they can use the internal possibilities of the language. Zamenhof was probably aware of this possibility, since he described the affixes as "words", but maybe out of conformism to the European languages he never used them that way himself.
- made the language more convenient by shortening roots: "komenti" instead of "komentarii", "spontana" instead of "spontanea", etc.

Language authorities are useful, but the community of speakers is at least as much as important to keep the language alive, user-friendly, practical, colourful, flexible, etc.

yyaann:
- started using affixes as stand-alone words, proving how cleverly and creatively they can use the internal possibilities of the language.

Actually, everything you've described above can be described as "cleverly and creatively [using] the internal possibilities of the language." (OK, maybe there's a bit more to "krokodili".)

morfran:

novatago:I never heard a complaint from anybody about the word woman -> wo - man.

I thought we covered this already. But here’s Wikipedia’s explication of “woman”:

Wikipedia:In Old English sources, the word "man" was gender-neutral, with a meaning similar to the modern English usage of "one" as an indefinite pronoun. The words wer and wyf were used to specify a man or woman where necessary, respectively. Combining them into wer-man or wyf-man expressed the concept of "any man" or "any woman".

novatago:... I began with english when I was 11, now I am 37; I haven't heard a complaint about the word woman in 26 years.

Ignorance is bliss:

Wikipedia:"Womyn" is one of several alternative spellings of the word "women" used by some feminists. There are many alternative spellings, including “womban” and "womon” (singular), and "wimmin” (plural). Writers who use alternative spellings see them as an expression of female independence and a repudiation of traditions that define females by reference to a male norm.

I just want to reply to this that Old english is not modern english. In modern english man is male. And is exactly the same problem with esperanto. I'm inventing a problem here, the same feminazis are inventing a problem in esperanto.

At the end of the day, ignorants aren't so happy. Are they?

Ĝis, Novatago.

Seriously, enough with the talk of "feminazis". It's insulting.

novatago:I just want to reply to this that Old english is not modern english. In modern english man is male.

“Woman” as a compound only has meaning in Old English. In modern English, where “man” has come to mean an adult male but “wo” means nothing at all, “woman” isn’t analyzable as a compound, and so isn’t the English answer to virino you’re trying to make it.

novatago:I'm inventing a problem here, the same feminazis are inventing a problem in esperanto.

Wow. After sixteen pages and you’re still on about the feminazis. You should really change your screenname to “hieraŭ”.

AllenHartwell:Because repeatedly calling me a fascist...

How about this: If it’s so egregious that a newb announce reforms to his own usage before learning the language, maybe you should learn the language a little more before howling for a kvara reich. (Without knowing the language, both of you literally don’t know what you’re talking about.)

AllenHartwell:...is polite

Perhaps you’re right. Let’s review:

AllenHartwell:“Some authority is open to question. Some is not.”

“...Novatago kaj Kaŝperanto kaj la aliaj lojalaj esperantistoj”

“The last thing I need as a beginner is a bad example from an enemy of Esperanto.”

“I'm kind of surprised to see how many traitors there were in these threads though.”

“Wouldn't it be easier simply to continue banning the ones who out themselves as trolls by referencing these ‘projects’?”

“If someone doesn't like Esperanto, then they can find another language to sabotage.”

“the fiulo who declares himself better and more knowledgeable than the actual Esperantists has no right even to speak their language.”

“The community is still just as devoted and capable of protecting itself against reformistoj and their attempts to destroy this language.”

“This ASCarroll fiacxulo could pose a continuing threat to his local community”

“We should remain vigilant against trolls and reformists, especially in this section. Why isn't there a watchlist for the worst of them anyway?”

“Using a degenerate Esperanto itself is an attack on the community of Esperantists”

“I'm entirely aware that other Esperantists aren't far sighted enough care quite as much about the interna ideo or linguistic purity.”

Nope. If the jackboot fits, mein Herr, wear it.

Seriously, has no one noticed a strange coincidence between the timing of the departure of the original poster and the arrival of a new, adamant and abrasive komencanto that has very strong feelings towards Esperanto with a bent towards Fundamento fundamentalism?

makis:Seriously, has no one noticed a strange coincidence between the timing of the departure of the original poster and the arrival of a new, adamant and abrasive komencanto that has very strong feelings towards Esperanto with a bent towards Fundamento fundamentalism?

Heh, I'm glad you mentioned that. I admit I was rather curious myself.