Whatever one thought of the late ASCarroll’s fascination with neologisms (which he would obviously have to abandon after enough people failed to understand him), a living language is never immune to change, even spelling and grammatical change. Indeed, it’s the only the dead language that never changes.

In English, for example, Noah Webster proposed a number of spelling reforms for American English. Some of his proposals took, some of them didn’t — the ones that took are the reason why the spelling of American English remains different from the British.

There have also been various epicene pronouns like “ey”, “zhe”, “hu”, “thon”, and “co” proposed since at least 1898. None of them gained much traction until now, in the age of the “thruple”, when people in Baltimore have reportedly been using “yo” as an epicene pronoun.

And ending a sentence with a preposition, once anathema in school (though common practice since the Old English period), is now regarded as acceptable.

Those changes — the few that leaped to mind — were made by people with absolutely no authority to do so, seeing as English has no governing academy as does, say, Spanish. Posters here whose native languages are governed by a prescriptive academy should know that reforms can and do come from time to time, and do so by fiat, “living language” be damned.

In any case, neologism-prone komencantoj may be annoying for some, but if the entire English-speaking community reacted the way this forum does to every proposed neologism, it’d still be talking like Beowulf.

As for the Esperanto-speaking community, just because every spertulo has heard this or that proposal before — and probably always will, since so many komencantoj will have the same issues with the language — I still don’t see why certain people here feel so self-assuredly justified in keeping their phasers forever set to “dickish”.

morfran:...

Great summary morfran. I couldn't agree more. I am still wondering if it is the lernu community and staff, or the Esperanto community in general that behave the way you described. If the latter were the case, that would be sad.

I've always believed in the words of Alexander Pope- "Be not the first by whom the new are tried, Nor yet the last to lay the old aside." To me sentences like "Tiu papago estas paroliva" and "Tiu ĉambro estas lumoza" seem reasonable. But until I sense that such use has become standard, I will continue to say "Tiu papago estas parolpova" and "Tiu ĉambro estas lumoplena." I believe that one should always seek to speak the language as it is commonly spoken, not as one would like it to be spoken. Communication is better that way and, after all, communication is the goal.

Mustelvulpo:Communication is better that way and, after all, communication is the goal.

Therefore, we should all talk an Esperanto that is understandable by all, la Bona Lingvo suggested by Claude Piron.

Amike.

morfran:Posters here whose native languages are governed by a prescriptive academy should know that reforms can and do come from time to time, and do so by fiat, “living language” be damned.

I only will say, because I find useless to discuss the thing speaking about esperanto for “n” time, that Spanish Language Royal Academy has not a much different task and power than Esperanto Academy has. They only check, explain the language, and make recommendations based in the real use to avoid misunderstoods, specially in formal contexts. They have not any power to change the language, and in my life I only remember (may be I'm wrong) to have seen changes (not always accepted) in orthography.

Many people (even if they don't understand the task of the academy) in my country but no everyone (often those who don't understand the task of the academy), take very seriously the academy recommendations and its dictionary, because they (we) think is very important to understand AND to be understood. People taking this seriously usually understand perfectly why and how a language changes, but to know that is not a reason to abandon rules and fall in an orgie of “everything is right just because at the end of the day a language always change”.

Ĝis, Novatago.

novatago:They have not any power to change the language

Insofar as the Academy’s responsible for the remarkable regularity of Spanish grammar, it does seem to have some power over the language. Or at least did at one time. (Reportedly a lot of people were not happy about its latest changes to the alphabetization of ch and ll, and refused to cooperate.)

I suppose the real question here is: If even the Real Academia Española doesn’t have the power to issue fatwas against misusers of Spanish, as you say it doesn’t, why do you feel you have that power and duty regarding Esperantists?

Do you seriously believe that ASCarroll’s passion for neologisms is going to Balkanize Esperanto, which has withstood reform movements and schisms of every kind for over a century? People misuse English all the time, God knows — you included — yet despite all the morphological mangling, the reform movement ravaging, and other linguistic crimes against the humanities, somehow the language endures without tarring and feathering those who’ve strayed from the Queen’s English.

Esperanto already has its grammar police. It doesn’t need grammar vigilantes.

It does need more interested people, though, something that’s less likely to happen when the community seems to know only condescension or hostility when it comes to newbies and their usual concerns.

From what I’ve seen in here, the biggest deterrent to learning good Esperanto isn’t neologisms or reform-minded noobs, but certain corners of the Esperanto community itself.

morfran:

novatago:They have not any power to change the language

Insofar as the Academy’s responsible for the remarkable regularity of Spanish grammar, it does seem to have some power over the language. Or at least did at one time. (Reportedly a lot of people were not happy about its latest changes to the alphabetization of ch and ll, and refused to cooperate.)

I suppose the real question here is: If even the Real Academia Española doesn’t have the power to issue fatwas against misusers of Spanish, as you say it doesn’t, why do you feel you have that power and duty regarding Esperantists?

Do you seriously believe that ASCarroll’s passion for neologisms is going to Balkanize Esperanto, which has withstood reform movements and schisms of every kind for over a …

I'm not discussing the thing again because I gave explanations, reasons and facts. You didn't read them, your problem. You don't want to understand them, your problem. You are not agree with them, that's ok but it's still your problem.

Ĝis, Novatago.

nornen:I am still wondering if it is the lernu community and staff, or the Esperanto community in general that behave the way you described. If the latter were the case, that would be sad.

I think you will find that a remarkable resistance to nonstandard Esperanto permeates the experienced speaking population, worldwide. It's not 100%, of course - it never is with these sorts of things - but it is substantial.

That isn't sad at all, however. It's what keeps the language stable.

novatago:

morfran:Posters here whose native languages are governed by a prescriptive academy should know that reforms can and do come from time to time, and do so by fiat, “living language” be damned.

I only will say, because I find useless to discuss the thing speaking about esperanto for “n” time, that Spanish Language Royal Academy has not a much different task and power than Esperanto Academy has. They only check, explain the language, and make recommendations based in the real use to avoid misunderstoods, specially in formal contexts. They have not any power to change the language, and in my life I only remember (may be I'm wrong) to have seen changes (not always accepted) in orthography.

The work of the Real Academia Española is actually a lot better and a lot more flexible than novatage describes it. I have been working (as a user) with their publications for some 16 years now, and the change is fundamental.

What once was a very European-centered academy with certain prescriptive undertones has changed over the last years into a formidable example of how a descriptive grammar and lexicon should look like. Chapeau!

And the changes are not limited to orthography as novatago wants us to believe.

• They have stepped up incredibly the American vocabulary (although the "ŝ" sound, which is (almost) absent in European Spanish, is sometimes rendered as "x", sometimes as "s" and sometimes as "ch" ).
  
• The conjugation tables now include two forms for the second person singular and two forms for the second person plural.
  
• The grammar gives detailed information about the use of personal pronouns (la/lo/le) in Spain which is really great for Americans as the so called "leísmo" makes European Spanish speakers hard to understand. (In America you distinguish strictly between dative pronouns (le/les) and accusative pronouns (lo/la/los/las), but in Europe the usage is somewhat haphazard, which causes confusion and misunderstandings.)
  
• The hyphenation rules take into account American consonant clusters: e.g. "a-tle-ta" besides "at-le-ta".

TL;DR. Nowadays, the national language academies (or at least the RAE) have realized that publishing a prescriptive grammar or lexicon is uncalled-for, bollocks and a vain and idle attempt at murdering a language. They focus on helping us with descriptive publications, trying to cover as many different aspects of the language and its varieties as possible.

As morfran said, if all innovation were trodden down like it is here, we would still be in the middle ages.

And it hasn't been the Esperanto Academy that bashed and flamed the new user because he got excited, it was other speakers (and hence learners)...

nornen:As morfran said, if all innovation were trodden down like it is here, we would still be in the middle ages.

Yes, that IS very dramatic, and doesn't overstate things at all. And might even be true, if Lernu was the entire Esperanto universe. Which, it isn't.

As a lernejo, Lernu is not a place where language "innovation" happens, or is even expected to happen. Lernu is a place where the established language is taught. We're not designing the language here. The language design is considered fully complete, and has been for quite some time. Lernu teaches that particular, established, design.

"Aren't there flaws in that design?" I may ask, putting words into your mouth. That's an irrelevant question. It is what it is.

Innovation happens in the wide world outside of Lernu. When new, better, more expressive, less gendered, more logical, etc. ways of speaking are widely adopted by the global Esperanto community, Lernu will no doubt be teaching them.

Just, not before. You wanna innovate, you take it outside. If it's any good, it'll find it's way back in*.

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* You find a way to get Bertilo to stick your nascent thoughtcrime in the next edition of the PMEG, it's a done deal. People will argue, but it'll blow over.