Yeah, Ido and Esperanto aren't really "enemies" in any kind of real sense. There were some bad feelings in the early days, sure, but that's pretty much blown over by now. Basically, Esperanto "won", if you want to look at it that way, and Ido is just more of a historical curiosity nowadays. But in truth, they're simply considered two related languages at this point. "Loyalty" isn't something that really comes into play, and some interested Esperantists learn Ido, just to see what all the fuss was about.

I think a better way to think of it is, Esperanto isn't something you join, it's something you learn. There's no competition - other conlangs are nice, too, and many Lernu members speak several. We just happen to focus on Esperanto on this site.

erinja:Since we do have a relatively small number of regular posters, I wonder if we can work out a standardized way of responding to these reform-minded beginners.

I'd just tell them the facts and let them make of it what they will. If they can't get their head around the facts then I wouldn't be inclined to spend any further energy trying to convince them... they seem to find a way to believe whatever it is they want to believe anyway.

What might be useful is to have a page on the site that explains the situation with regards to reform proposals. Then you can just link them to that page and bail out the conversation. If they persist with their ideas then you know they either didn't bother to read the page, in which case they don't care what the facts are, or they read it but just want to hold forth in a state of denial. In either case you know you're dealing with a person who isn't worth your time.

tommjames:

erinja:Since we do have a relatively small number of regular posters, I wonder if we can work out a standardized way of responding to these reform-minded beginners.

I'd just tell them the facts and let them make of it what they will. If they can't get their head around the facts then I wouldn't be inclined to spend any further energy trying to convince them... they seem to find a way to believe whatever it is they want to believe anyway.

In part the problem is that when you or me tell someone that esperanto is a language in use, or a language and not a project, they almost always will understand that as a personal opinion in a internet forum, not as a fact in the real life.

tommjames:What might be useful is to have a page on the site that explains the situation with regards to reform proposals.

I agree with this.

Ĝis, Novatago.

We previously discussed having a page devoted to reform proposals, but then we decided against it because it gives legitimacy to the idea by the very fact of having such a page on an Esperanto learning site. You certainly wouldn't see an English learning site with a page on spelling reforms, for example.

It would be better if someone created a page off this site (or if we could find such an existing page?) and we could link to something off-site.

erinja:We previously discussed having a page devoted to reform proposals, but then we decided against it because it gives legitimacy to the idea by the very fact of having such a page on an Esperanto learning site. You certainly wouldn't see an English learning site with a page on spelling reforms, for example.

It would be better if someone created a page off this site (or if we could find such an existing page?) and we could link to something off-site.

I agree but, in the other hand, you still can do a page clarifiying that Esperanto is a language in use that must be learned in the same attitude as any other language. It's no needed at all to mention reforms and you can justify the “warning” because many people don't know that it became a language a long time ago. And it's clear that even if in the website there is information that drives to that conclusion, it's needed a must to be read message to all beginners because it's evident some of them are missing the idea by lack of attention or something.

Ĝis, Novatago.

I did some searches last night on the most annoying of the lies. It seems like "people" like that have been a somewhat significant problem around here for a while. Wouldn't it be easier simply to continue banning the ones who out themselves as trolls by referencing these "projects"? It seems to have worked well before, and it's not like normal people just magically think of these on their own. It seems evident that they've been coming from somewhere.

There seems to be some idea that Esperanto still is a conlang. Since I first met a native speaker, I am no longer of that opinion. Esperanto is no more of a conlang than is Indonesian or Modern Hebrew, or was German in the decade following Luther's translation of the "bible".
I have now met five native speakers of Esperanto and they are definitely not Esperantists, just speakers. They do not get angry when someone botches the accusative nor do they argue about neologisms. If they can't find the word in their Esperanto vocabulary, they fill in with the language in the community of which they live or the language that they think the listener will understand. They do not follow the Krestomatio and they don't get too excited about Zamenhof.

I am writing a piece of prose in Esperanto in which there is an immigrant to the city in which my story takes place. I have used Ido for the language of that immigrant. The other characters in my story understand what she says but by using Ido I give her a distinct personality as someone who does not speak fluent Esperanto. In a way, I find Ido "cute" but I would not use it to communicate. To me it sounds a bit parochial - a little like when non-native English speakers from Europe try to speak American English.

In this discussion, don't forget "Simple English" (there are even entries in Wikopedia in this conlang). Simple English is indeed a conlang since nobody speaks it as a native language. The same goes for "Globish".

"AllenHartwell":Wouldn't it be easier simply to continue banning the ones who out themselves as trolls by referencing these "projects"

So much arrogance …

"robbkvasnak":There seems to be some idea that Esperanto still is a conlang. Since I first met a native speaker, I am no longer of that opinion. Esperanto is no more of a conlang than is Indonesian or Modern Hebrew, or was German in the decade following Luther's translation of the "bible".

It's not a matter of constructed or not. Languages change; if they don't, they'll die. And to me it seems that waiting for totally "natural change" takes too long in todays world. German had a reform ~15 years ago and IMO it was a good step to do. Something similar can be done in the case of Esperanto, but too many speakers seem to fear such a step; i guess due to Esperantos history and all the Esprantidos.

AllenHartwell:[...] It seems like "people" like that have been a somewhat significant problem around here for a while. [...] It seems to have worked well before, and it's not like normal people just magically think of these on their own.

What is the criterion for distinguishing between people between quotes, and normal people?

robbkvasnak:
I have now met five native speakers of Esperanto and they are definitely not Esperantists, just speakers. They do not get angry when someone botches the accusative nor do they argue about neologisms. If they can't find the word in their Esperanto vocabulary, they fill in with the language in the community of which they live or the language that they think the listener will understand. They do not follow the Krestomatio and they don't get too excited about Zamenhof.

That miss the point of the discussion. We are not talking about people just talking wrong because they aren't fluent, or they haven't time to practice or any other reasonable thing that could happen in any other language.

The point is people that is sitting in a classroom and don't let go ahead the class of any language because they don't like something in that language.

robbkvasnak:In this discussion, don't forget "Simple English" (there are even entries in Wikopedia in this conlang). Simple English is indeed a conlang since nobody speaks it as a native language. The same goes for "Globish".

Actually there is a whole wikipedia http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page. Well, it's Simple English but probably the biggest difference is in the name.

Ĝis, Novatago.