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Quantitative Studies About Learning Esperanto?

fra bartlett22183,2014 6 27

Meldinger: 34

Språk: English

Christa627 (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 3 19:35:04

sudanglo:None of this is available for the student of Esperanto, who may have to flounder around just to decide what the best word is for very mundane everyday matters, and be completely at sea in the matter of social discourse, as the language is not spoken anywhere for normal daily living.
Yup. I am all too familiar with that feeling!

Christa627 (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 3 20:07:24

robbkvasnak:The term "proficiency level" sounds like a term drawn out of the epistomological toolbox but in reality, in language,it is a bit like trying to define "proficiency level" in playing the violin or in preparing an excellent seven-course meal paired with the appropriate wines. Despite the scienctific side to these endeavors, there is always an element of caprice, yes, artistic or inspirational caprice, that plays a role in this field. If this were not the case, then Google translate would be a great success and would be termed as one of the best language learners our world knows.
ROFL... Google translate actually does English-Esperanto VERY badly! I sometimes "use" it just for laughs; it wouldn't know an accusative if one came up and bit its ankle!

From GT: ROFL ... Google traduki reale faras angla-Esperanta tre malbone! Mi kelkfoje "uzas" ĝin nur por ridas; ĝi ne scius akuzativa se oni venis supren kaj ekmordis lian maleolon!

OK, so maybe using a crazy usona idiom isn't quite fair...

Try a sentence from your quote:
La termino "uzkapablo nivelo" sonas kiel termino kaptito el la epistemologia ilkesto sed en realo, en lingvo, estas iom kiel provas al difini "uzkapablo nivelon" en ludi la violonon aŭ en prepari bonegan sep-kurson manĝo parigita kun la taŭgajn vinoj.

So it does sometimes put accusatives in the right places, but still, that's hardly proper Esperanto!

All which just goes to demonstrate your point that a computer does not have the true understanding of language, unique to humans, necessary for using a language well!

nornen (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 3 22:48:37

Christa627:All which just goes to demonstrate your point that a computer does not have the true understanding of language, unique to humans, necessary for using a language well!
Which brings us back to the turing test. Most current translation software doesn't read in one language, understand it semantically and then rephrase it in another language. It is mostly statistical models about translating certain phrases in certain environments and using English as an intermediate language if English is neither the source nor the target language.

Maybe the requirements for a conIAL have changed over the last hundred years. Maybe a current conIAL should be unambiguously parseable by a machine not a human (ok, almost all languages aren't even unambiguously parseable by humans). The machine then could generate the written or spoken output in the target language. Maybe UNL is a step in the right direction.

Another advantage would be that if it is parseable by a machine, it is also parseable by humans; so if you find a nice phonetic linear rendering for it you have a human conIAL again.

sudanglo (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 4 10:29:57

To be all at sea - lack orientation, not know where you are. Probably comes from the early days of navigation, when away from the coast it was difficult to determine one's exact position.

sudanglo (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 4 10:56:51

And Sudangulo is quite right in citing the "leftie stranguloj" culture of Esperantio. In general, those who speak Esperanto tend to be more culturally open and interested in other cultures than the general population. This is one prominent aspect of Esperanto culture
That puts a nicely diplomatic spin on it, Robb.

But I would make the point that Esperanto is also for those who have little interest in, or disdain for, other cultures, but who do not want the inconvenience of devoting hours of language study in order to have their wishes understood when travelling abroad.

As long as Esperantujo remains a club for internationalists, it won't have appeal to the wider population.

And for Esperanto to be practically useful, it has to be embraced by people of all sorts.

robbkvasnak (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 4 18:13:31

That is quite true and "onidire" there was once a female prostitute in Paris who "varbis" in Esperanto. Hehe! I suppose that we will need con-artists and scam-artists like some of the "English"-language emails that I get supposedly from friends who want me to wire money to them overseas. Fortunately, a swift linguistic analysis of these emails quickly reveals that they are def NOT from a friend whose quirks and kinks in language are familiar to me and since they are not even in pragmatically correct English they are easily recognized for the tricks they are. In Esperanto that would be harder to detect but then again, not many of my friends speak Esperanto, so getting an email like that from one of them would be a rarity.
At this time, Esperanto thieves' lingo and underworld slang can probably only be imagined by novelists and poets - not by Esperanto speakers. Oy veh, when that time comes!

Altebrilas (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 4 19:25:49

@ Robb: The problem is knowing where my son could meet peers he can admire and who incite him to participate in Esperanto meetings.

@ Robb, Sudanglo: Regarding the leftie stranguloj, the fact is that SAT, which is officially a left esperanto association, was a time a very active in terms of editions of textbooks, dictionaries, etc ... But UEA is the main assiciation which is neutral and avoids political issues. However, values ​​such as peace, tolerance, humanism, etc.. are consubstantial with Esperanto, although for the sake of communication, it has to be tolerant with dictatures.

This discussion about culture is very interesting, and I regret that it is not in esperanto because I should like to know opinions from esperantists belonging to other cultures...

About "stranguloj", it is sure that people who spend hours learning a language without being sure to get a material profit from it are a biased sample of modern world people.

bartlett22183 (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 4 19:43:12

sudanglo:And for Esperanto to be practically useful, it has to be embraced by people of all sorts.
Absolutely. I am a regular participant (disclosure: listowner) in the mailing list AUXlANG, and there have been posts by one regular participant (no, not me) regarding the "auxlang epiphany." This long time participant asserts that any constructed international auxiliary language -- yes, most definitely and and most decidedly including Esperanto!!! -- will never succeed beyond the hobby stage until there is a sort of "epiphany" (his term) regarding the desirability of any(!) constructed language at all in the face of English, the most overwhelmingly successful international auxiliary language in the entire history of the planet to date. If this is so -- and I do not entirely agree with it!! -- then what is there for Esperanto but Raŭmismo? (And please note, I myself support the conIAL ideal and am not completely a Raŭmisto.) Just within the last few days there have been posts on Auxlang regarding this.)

orthohawk (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 4 20:24:50

And for Esperanto to be practically useful, it has to be embraced by people of all sorts.
And that will never happen as long as those who are already in the Esperanto movement are nasty and bitchy to those who do not share their political, religious, and lifestyle viewpoints.

Altebrilas (Å vise profilen) 2014 7 5 13:46:42

orthohawk:
And for Esperanto to be practically useful, it has to be embraced by people of all sorts.
And that will never happen as long as those who are already in the Esperanto movement are nasty and bitchy to those who do not share their political, religious, and lifestyle viewpoints.
How to convince those who are in the Esperanto movement to debate with those who do not share their political, religious, and lifestyle viewpoints instead of ignoring or insulting them? That is what Esperanto was created for, isn't it?

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