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The word "with"

ya vikungen, 13 Novemba 2014

Ujumbe: 10

Lugha: English

vikungen (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Novemba 2014 12:23:40 alasiri

I am wondering a little regarding the use of the word "kun" in Esperanto and what prepositions are to be used and when.

I understand you would say: John kaj Marko estas kun Georg.

But how would one translate these sentences?

"Kill it with fire before it lays eggs."

"A woman with a swimming suit"

Kirilo81 (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Novemba 2014 12:55:18 alasiri

"Kill it with fire before it lays eggs."
Mortigu ĝin fajre/per fajro, antaŭ ol ĝi metos ovojn. (instrument)
"A woman with a swimming suit"
Virino kun bankostumo. ("company" in the broadest sence)

Mustelvulpo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Novemba 2014 1:52:13 alasiri

"Virino kun bankostumo" would in most cases imply that the woman is wearing the bathing suit. But it could also mean that the woman simply has the suit in her possession. If you need to make clear that the woman is wearing the suit "virino portante bankostumon" or simply "virino en bankostumo" is more to the point.

Kirilo81 (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Novemba 2014 1:53:47 alasiri

Just to sharpen my understanding: Does English "A woman with a swimming suit" imply that she is wearing it?

AxelMajere (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Novemba 2014 2:24:57 alasiri

Kirilo81:Just to sharpen my understanding: Does English "A woman with a swimming suit" imply that she is wearing it?
No, it implies she has a swimming suit with her, as in carrying it. A woman in a swimming suit would be wearing it.

Alkanadi (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Novemba 2014 2:26:41 alasiri

Kirilo81:Just to sharpen my understanding: Does English "A woman with a swimming suit" imply that she is wearing it?
No.

"A woman with a swimming suit..." --> She might be wearing it but it sounds like she is carrying it.

"A woman in a swimming suit..." --> She is wearing it.

"A woman wearing a swimming suit..." --> She is wearing it.

nornen (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Novemba 2014 3:25:14 alasiri

Mustelvulpo:If you need to make clear that the woman is wearing the suit "virino portante bankostumon" or simply "virino en bankostumo" is more to the point.
"Virino portanta bankostumon" might backfire, because "porti" means literally "carry" and then figuratively "wear". Compare "virino portanta infanon".

Maybe less ambiguous [1]: "virino surhavanta bankostumon." or more simple and as you have already pointed out: "virino en bankostumo"

----
[1] I always need to look up the spelling of "ambiguous".

vikungen (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Novemba 2014 5:03:30 alasiri

Thanks for the input!

Well so "in a bathing suit" it seems possible to say in Esperanto to remove the ambiguity of "with".

But how do you then say:

- A man with (in) a red jacket. [This will face the same question between in and with]

Viro en ruĝa jako?
Viro kun ruĝa jako?

- A man with red shoes. [Though this will face a different problem]

Viro en ruĝaj ŝuoj?
Viro kun ruĝaj ŝuoj?

sergejm (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Novemba 2014 5:35:07 alasiri

About jacket and shoes: this is the same as with bathing suit.
But 'viro kun glavo'? Do the sword is in the scabbard or it is in the hand? In this case you need add 'viro kun glavo en glavingo' or 'viro kun glavo en la mano'.

Nephihaha (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 16 Novemba 2014 9:56:48 alasiri

Kirilo81:Just to sharpen my understanding: Does English "A woman with a swimming suit" imply that she is wearing it?
Sometimes, but not usually.

"A woman with a swimsuit ON" definitely means she is wearing it.

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