Nobody is prohibiting Esperanto in the English forum, only Esperanto-only posts.

Absolutely. You must be bonkers if you imagine that English speakers at Lernu can understand Esperanto.

Right, you're free to post in Esperanto to any forum on this site. But if it's not an Esperanto forum then you need to include a translation into the language of the forum.

As for the existence of national language forums, if you believe this site should have Esperanto only, then stop posting in the non-Esperanto forums. I normally hate these lame platitudes, but "be the change you want to see". If you are opposed to seeing national languages on this website, then stop posting in the national language forums and let them die out through non-use.

On the actual topic of this discussion, much has been made of "normality". A 1920's Yiddish poet was paraphrased by David Ben Gurion. Combining the original saying and the paraphrase, it's something like "Israel will be a normal country when Jewish thieves and Jewish prostitutes conduct their business in Hebrew and are arrested by Jewish police".

That is to say, that you can't be normal without encompassing a wide range of society. We do already have Esperanto thieves and scams but I would say that normality also includes a continuum between political positions and lifestyles. "Normal" encompasses things that a person finds offensive or disgusting, which depending on your view might be either the Polyamorous Vegan Gay Rights Club or the Young Christian Conservatives' Gun Rights Club.

If you feel that the Esperanto movement has gone too far in a cultural direction that you don't like, the solution is not to bash all of those "weird" people but to work to give an alternative to people who fit with you. If being a railroad enthusiast or a polyamorist or a non-nationalist aren't your thing, that's fine because they aren't everyone's thing, but they have people doing work to develop programming and plan events. If it's not your thing and you can't find your thing, then you should work to develop something that is your thing, preferably stated in a positive way. That is to say, I'm not into railroads but I have never heard railroad enthusiasts trashing the non-railroad enthusiasts for not being on board. Rather, they positively state their enthusiasm for the thing they like. Similarly, someone starting a new club or organization fitting with their beliefs should preferably be positively stated. A club whose founding principle is "We support adherence to a Torah lifestyle, therefore we provide kosher food and minyanim for Sabbath observers at Esperanto events" is pretty clearly a Jewish group, but it doesn't trash other religions in defining itself. (such a group does not exist, I made it up, but the Young Conservatives' Gun Rights Club could similarly define itself in positive terms for what it supports, rather than trashing beliefs it doesn't support).

I feel like such positive speech is necessary in a small movement like ours. We have room for a wide range of beliefs but we don't have room for cutting each other down, even though we don't always agree.

erinja:On the actual topic of this discussion, much has been made of "normality". A 1920's Yiddish poet was paraphrased by David Ben Gurion. Combining the original saying and the paraphrase, it's something like "Israel will be a normal country when Jewish thieves and Jewish prostitutes conduct their business in Hebrew and are arrested by Jewish police".

That is to say, that you can't be normal without encompassing a wide range of society.
I feel like such positive speech is necessary in a small movement like ours. We have room for a wide range of beliefs but we don't have room for cutting each other down, even though we don't always agree.

Hi, Erin---I whole-heartedly agree with you. And as long as they're speaking for their own particular Esperanto-based theme group, I really don't care what they're promoting. For quite some time, I've been on a political mailing list that uses Esperanto--some of the participants are socialists if not out and out commuists, and the comments bashing and trash-talking America actually border on the absurd at times--but I actually think it's fun to participate, even though I may roll my eyes and shake my head at some of the ridiculous remarks. It doesn't offend me in the least that the list is Esperanto-based, nor does it bother me that and some of the people there hate the United States so badly that they can hardly see straight--it's a discussion list that addresses POLITICS not ESPERANTO, per se.

Where I differ with people is when groups that purport to be all about Esperanto--national or international Esperanto societies, for example--take public positions that seem to dictate the ideology of the movement. Showing up at a "gay pride" parade with signs saying "the ___________ Esperanto Society supports...." makes it look like there is some link or association between the two causes.

Just think--when the Esperanto congress took place in Communist countries (once Hanoi, twice in China, or twice in Cuba) if the Esperantists had converged on the event carrying signs saying "The ____________ Esperanto Society deplores political repression, supports democratically elected free elections, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech and of the press"--how would it have gone over? If I went to my Esperanto meeting tomorrow and said "we're attending the local Tea Party event--let's make signs saying 'The Central Oklahoma Esperanto Society Supports....'" you get the idea. Or how about if we showed up at a pro-life event with signs speaking for the movement, proclaiming "Esperanto-USA---Proudly Pro-life!", I imagine that some people wouldn't agree. I think we need to leave the political causes to the dedicated side-groups to deal with--and if they're Esperanto-speaking, so-be-it---but our national/international organizations need to keep their noses out of political and cultural war zones.

If the Central Oklahoma Esperanto society really does all support the Tea Party, then I actually wouldn't have a problem with them attending the Tea Party event and declaring their support.

When I say I think Esperanto is normal, I really mean that. I think it's fine for a Jewish group to march in a gay rights parade with a sign "Jews for Gay Rights", and I also think it's fine for a Jewish group to march in a Tea Party parade with a sign "Jews for the Tea Party", and same deal for Esperanto. I welcome more gays to learn Esperanto - and also more tea partiers (and also more gay tea partiers).

I do include the additional point that this works only on a small scale. Esperanto-USA is too big to participate in something political, because it encompasses members with a wide range of views. But an Esperanto club of 10 people, all of whom agree on something -- in my opinion, sure, why not? It's a marketplace of ideas.

yep.
I'm thinking of starting a group called "the crowd what only thinks like me." It will be a group of dedicated individuals that only hold the same opinions I hold. When I change my mind, they will have to change their minds too!!.. the beauty of all this is that I will actually be able to dictate what they stand for. I will tell them what to write on their signs. I will be king! I will have the right to tell them what to support and what to drop. It is going to be glorious.

I strongly suggest to anyone out there who wants to belong to a group that will never support anything outside of what you yourself are comfortable with, and will remain 'neutral' in terms of what you deem neutral to form a similar, 'this is how I see it' group.

There will be no debates! No questions. No annoying different angles. Shag trying to fit into a whole globe of ideas and tolerance.. what a waste of time! The world is too big. Esperanto aspires to spread itself across this expanse. How silly. The cult of the local, of the small is where humans are comfy.

I know lots of stuff.
Stick with me!

Ha!

Se, we would all love to help once we get over ourselves.. can we translate? is there a copyright we cannot get beyond? Can you contact the university and make a proposal?

vejktoro:yep.
I'm thinking of starting a group called "the crowd what only thinks like me." It will be a group of dedicated individuals that only hold the same opinions I hold. When I change my mind, they will have to change their minds too!!.. the beauty of all this is that I will actually be able to dictate what they stand for. I will tell them what to write on their signs. I will be king! I will have the right to tell them what to support and what to drop. It is going to be glorious.

I strongly suggest to anyone out there who wants to belong to a group that will never support anything outside of what you yourself are comfortable with, and will remain 'neutral' in terms of what you deem neutral to form a similar, 'this is how I see it' group.

There will be no debates! No questions. No annoying different angles. Shag trying to fit into a whole globe of ideas and tolerance.. what a waste of time! The world is too big. Esperanto aspires to spread itself across this expanse. How silly. The cult of the local, of the small is where humans are comfy.

I know lots of stuff.
Stick with me!

Ha!

Se, we would all love to help once we get over ourselves.. can we translate? is there a copyright we cannot get beyond? Can you contact the university and make a proposal?

Well, Vejktoro, if you do get such a group up and going, more power to you. And if you do it in Esperanto and make it the "International Vejktoro Mind-Control Group" with a motto that reads something like "Never have to think for yourself again...EVER!"---go for it; you'd actually have my (from a distance) support. You'd look amazingly similar to a large number of politically liberal social movements already in existence...but, hey, why not one more? Just do me a favor---don't name your group "The Esperanto Society of _______________" and make it look like your way of thinking is what the Esperanto movement is all about.

Not cool to trash liberals, Polaris. Groupthink exists in all parts of the political spectrum. I actually mean what I say about not trashing other groups, and this includes snide remarks ("Oh, you're suggesting XYZ? Har har har, sounds just like group ABC!!!")

What does "shag" mean?

robbkvasnak:What does "shag" mean?

Ha!

You can't be in with my crowd if you don't know.

'shag' is a softer form of 'pack'

I've been told it is kind of offensive in Britain, but I don't know for sure. Here, shag this or tha, just means never mind this or that. The word carries no weight.

Pack this or that is a little stronger. Some might be told to go pack themselves. Of course, you'd have to be a real friggin bother to be told to pack off."

If Polaris lived here, he might very well say something like, "Shag you, Vejktoro, you little frigger, go pack yourself.