1Guy1:(snip)

Also, Esperanto is a coming together of all kinds of people and beliefs for dialogue; you cannot expect everyone here to accommodate or agree with your views, certainly some of mine are ridden over roughshod regularly.

Esperanto should be inclusive, not exclusive. Your argument doesn't work when you're using it to exclude people from Esperanujo.

Krael:

1Guy1:(snip)

Also, Esperanto is a coming together of all kinds of people and beliefs for dialogue; you cannot expect everyone here to accommodate or agree with your views, certainly some of mine are ridden over roughshod regularly.

Esperanto should be inclusive, not exclusive. Your argument doesn't work when you're using it to exclude people from Esperanujo.

Esperanto is neither inclusive nor exclusive; it's a language, plain and simple.
And those who have left Lernu/Esperanto in the past over some offense they have felt weren't excluded; they excluded themselves.

orthohawk:Esperanto is neither inclusive nor exclusive; it's a language, plain and simple.

Of course it's "a language, plain and simple", I'm talking about the principles on which it was founded. Esperanto was created with the intention of fostering communication and understanding between different peoples and cultures. How the hell do you expect it to accomplish that goal when there's a group of people who can't even identify what they are within the language?

orthohawk:And those who have left Lernu/Esperanto in the past over some offense they have felt weren't excluded; they excluded themselves.

Red_Rat_Writer:

1guy1:There is already a thread about reform and someone deciding he is going to use a couple of extra pronouns (I didn't read the details as it is all so tedious and utterly boring). Hilarious!

novatago:And all just because a personal like or dislike, or because the great lie about esperanto being sexist.

jean-luc:La fundamento is pretty clear on the topic, ĝi must be used as a pronoun when the gender isn't known

jean-luc:why would you need a third gender and not 3000 ?

jean-luc:I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I just show that a neutral pronoun already exists in experanto. If some special snowflakes aren't happy with that, I could not care less.

Bemused:Fortunately. there is a solution. Forget Esperanto, learn Ido. Ido delivers what Esperanto only promises, a symmetrical, gender free, easy to learn language.

Tempodivalse:Sexism, at least in the way we normally think of it, is a feature of content, or semantics. What you say in the language can be sexist or not sexist.

Alkanadi:If it looks like a man, then say Li
If it looks like a woman, then say Sxi

Kirilo: I find it utterly narcistic to come up to someone and say "Hi, I'm XY, please use for me the pronoun [insert invented 3rd person pronoun here]". Heck, should I make a list of my LGBT friends who likes which pronoun?

Can you blame them?

I'm a heterosexual male who's perfectly happy going by "he", and I'm inclined to "exclude myself" from the Lernu community if the alternative means rubbing shoulders with a bunch of vile, elitist bigots like the ones who crawled into this thread to mock and belittle people for being different.

Krael: I'm inclined to "exclude myself" from the Lernu community if the alternative means rubbing shoulders with a bunch of vile, elitist bigots like the ones who crawled into this thread to mock and belittle people for being different.

"Crawl in to this thread" is a bit of an ironic statement from someone who's identity on Lernu has only been used,at the time of my posting, three times and only to post on this thread. Troll?

1Guy1:

Krael: I'm inclined to "exclude myself" from the Lernu community if the alternative means rubbing shoulders with a bunch of vile, elitist bigots like the ones who crawled into this thread to mock and belittle people for being different.

"Crawl in to this thread" is a bit of an ironic statement from someone who's identity on Lernu has only been used,at the time of my posting, three times and only to post on this thread. Troll?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to participate in the community until I've participated in the community. I've only been learning for a couple of weeks now (at the point where I can carry light conversation with people, though!), but I was under the impression that nobody had a greater "claim" on the language and community than anybody else. I see now that I was very, very mistaken about that.

1Guy1:

Krael: I'm inclined to "exclude myself" from the Lernu community if the alternative means rubbing shoulders with a bunch of vile, elitist bigots like the ones who crawled into this thread to mock and belittle people for being different.

"Crawl in to this thread" is a bit of an ironic statement from someone who's identity on Lernu has only been used,at the time of my posting, three times and only to post on this thread. Troll?

Nice argumentum ad personam/hominem. Instead of trying to rebut the content of his arguments, you attack him for being a new user. Jumping directly into a secundum quid, by concluding from his lack of activity that he might be a troll.

Now also I can confirm: Hilarious! (Not the thread on duolingo, but this one here)

nornen:

1Guy1:

Krael: I'm inclined to "exclude myself" from the Lernu community if the alternative means rubbing shoulders with a bunch of vile, elitist bigots like the ones who crawled into this thread to mock and belittle people for being different.

"Crawl in to this thread" is a bit of an ironic statement from someone who's identity on Lernu has only been used,at the time of my posting, three times and only to post on this thread. Troll?

Nice argumentum ad personam/hominem. Instead of trying to rebut the content of his arguments, you attack him for being a new user. Jumping directly into a secundum quid, by concluding from his lack of activity that he might be a troll.

Now also I can confirm: Hilarious! (Not the thread on duolingo, but this one here)

I think my suspicion is a valid one. Also. I am not the one hurling adjectives around. I'm out of here - bye

It seems by comprehension of English is too bad to understand what in this thread made at least two people delete their lernu-account ...
Guess we should just stop before this Exodus continues.

Came back this morning after being away most of yesterday ... Quite disappointed at how things blew up. I'm sorry to see some valued contributors delete their accounts.

Red_Rat_Writer:
First off, she has been rather considerate and intelligent on this thread however this point she made is a bit ignorante. IE, what if the word for husband was 'domregxo' and the word for wife was 'domsklavo'. People using them aren't necessarily sexist, but I think we agree to change the words.

Certainly it is possible to imagine a language whose structure has been rigged so that it guarantees a biased semantics. But this isn't the way Esperanto works, or just about every other language. Yes, the Romance-language preference for grammatical masculine very likely arose out of patriarchial attitudes, but that grammatical rule, again, doesn't affect the semantics.

Also, some people seem to have conflated my views on grammatical genders with views on societal/biological gender. I am confused at the insinuations that I am "ignorant" or "bigoted" when my commentary was restricted entirely to a linguistic point.

Perhaps I should add the disclaimer that I identify as a feminist.

In any case, this conversation appears to have exceeded its expiry date ...

Bemused:I am sorry you took it this way, and apologise for any offence you may have felt was directed toward you.
I did not mean to denigrate any persons choice regarding their sexual orientation.

I want to say now that in the previous comment, that was not a list of offensive things. That was a list of some offensive things, and something that could potentially offend someone. I was not personally offended by all of them, however, other people could be offended.

I apologize for the confusion.

1guy1:I do feel you are taking my words out of context. My hilarity was at how quickly this issue arose, my boredom because I have read so many of these pointless unpleasant arguments - neither is to do with your issue.

Firstoff, the facepalm was not directed towards you, it was directed towards Kirilo's comment.

I was not offended, nor was anyone else offended by it. I'm saying that someone else could read it out of context and then be offended.

I would like to apologize for any grief it has caused you.

Krael:I'm a heterosexual male who's perfectly happy going by "he", and I'm inclined to "exclude myself" from the Lernu community if the alternative means rubbing shoulders with a bunch of vile, elitist bigots like the ones who crawled into this thread to mock and belittle people for being different.

Most of the people I quoted were rather respectful to the queer community. No one was outwardly hateful towards them.

Tempodivalse: I am confused at the insinuations that I am "ignorant" or "bigoted" when my commentary was restricted entirely to a linguistic point.

I am not insinuating anything of that nature. You were respectful and considerate throughout the debate.

___________________________

I agree with Tempo, we should end this debate spare any amends that anybody wants to make.