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Duolingo will help with reform!!!!

by 1Guy1, May 31, 2015

Messages: 193

Language: English

erinja (User's profile) June 3, 2015, 3:58:05 PM

The masculine-to-neutral progression is more evolution than reform. "Reform" has a top-down connotation that simply doesn't happen in Esperanto. Changes to the language happen through evolution, not reform. Period. We have an academy that makes recommendations that are widely ignored, and the academy is simply never (ever) going to suggest a vast reform, and even if I did, I think it would be widely ignored. You can't just make a big reform to a living language.

I am not super worried about reform proposals because I know they fail every time. But I do think it's important to explain to good-hearted, enthusiastic beginners why their reform proposals are going to be meet with a very negative reception, usually expressed pretty rudely. You want to help them maintain their enthusiasm for the language while gently explaining that they should put aside their reform proposals until they speak the language well (by this time they will probably have lost interest), and also why they are meeting with such an intensely negative response (Esperanto speakers have heard this before and are tired of it).

Fenris_kcf (User's profile) June 3, 2015, 4:29:47 PM

I would really like to continue the discussion, but i'm tired of composing my thoughts in English. Can't we switch over to an Esperanto-subforum?

erinja (User's profile) June 3, 2015, 5:38:04 PM

Go ahead and start a thread and post a link back here ridulo.gif

Fenris_kcf (User's profile) June 6, 2015, 10:24:03 AM

Clarence666 (User's profile) June 6, 2015, 12:30:53 PM

erinja:most Esperanto speakers want isn't really that complicated -- it's to be treated as a normal language, equally as reformable as any other language (English, French, German
Then you might want to eliminate another problem much worse than reformists: the idea that every Esperantist must have a "gepatra lingvo" different from Esperanto. Imagine a German community with 100'000'000 people, and everyone of them has some "gepatra lingvo", it can be anything (Chinese, IDO, Logan, Magyar, TokiPona, Hawaian, ...), just NOT Deutsch. Absurd?

Tiam vi eble forigu alian problemon multe pli grava ol reformemuloj: la ideo ke cxiu Esperantisto havu na iu "gepatra lingvo" alia ol Esperanto. Imagu Germanan komunumon kun 100'000'000 personoj, kaj cxiu el ili havas na iu "gepatra lingvo", tio povas esti io (Chinese, IDO, Logan, Magyar, TokiPona, Hawaian, ...), nur ne Deutsch. Ridinde?

> http://www.romaniczo.com/esperanto/gramatiko/gramm...
> http://www.duolingo.com

Ambaux pagxoj ne funkcias.

> In la fundamento, Zamenhof uses gxi as a neutral pronoum

En la biblioteko, iu (kabeinta Kabe?) uzas pronomon "gxi" por insulti: http://eo.lernu.net/biblioteko/rakontoj/gfabeloj/n...

Tempodivalse (User's profile) June 6, 2015, 3:08:36 PM

Clarence666:
erinja:most Esperanto speakers want isn't really that complicated -- it's to be treated as a normal language, equally as reformable as any other language (English, French, German
Then you might want to eliminate another problem much worse than reformists: the idea that every Esperantist must have a "gepatra lingvo" different from Esperanto. Imagine a German community with 100'000'000 people, and everyone of them has some "gepatra lingvo", it can be anything (Chinese, IDO, Logan, Magyar, TokiPona, Hawaian, ...), just NOT Deutsch. Absurd?
Perhaps it's not what you're intended, but you're coming across as rather angry and confrontational. Given the past grievances in this thread, I think it's better for people to be considered in their words.

I don't see how what you said follows from erinja's comment. It is true that there are (much) fewer native Esperanto speakers than native German speakers. What does this have to do with reformability of the language, or its status as "normal"?

There are many languages with a large ratio of L2:L1 speakers, including some creoles. And functionally, Esperanto is evolving and living in approximately the same way as a national language - new terms get established or rejected by the same organic process, there is a body of literature which reflects the way the language is used in real life and establishes standard style, etc., etc.

patrik (User's profile) June 8, 2015, 8:46:22 AM

What has transpired here completely rends my heart. Reading this thread at its worst (I read it all) nauseated me. To think that this comes after the successful launch of Duolingo's Esperanto course deepens my grief.

Vigilance against unneccessary reforms is one thing but assailing those who may be sympathetic to those is another thing altogether. It is uncalled for. It is tragic. We've lost two decent folks because of it. A catastrophe given our circumstances.

It is sadly maddening that some lost their decency over linguistic foibles. But I guess it is inevitable: respecting laws more at the expense of people is a road to inhumanity.

If this attitude goes on, the community will surely be damaged. Let us not forget that Esperanto is about tolerance and respect. Whatever difference we may have is only secondary. Humanity first over all. Peace.

Meŝig (User's profile) June 8, 2015, 12:25:22 PM

Hi all,

(sorry I don't speak english very well)

I read all this thread today. I want to thank all those who had the courage to express their opinion (I am not able to have one). Thanks to them, my own thoughts about some questions became richer.

orthohawk (User's profile) June 9, 2015, 3:10:25 AM

Non-binary people are not quite the same as "people of unknown sex." They are people who belong to a separate gender from men and women. You know what their gender is; they'll tell you what their gender is. If the Fundamento has a pronoun for such people, I'm all ears.
Scientifically speaking, if the 23rd chromosome pair is XX the person is genetically female. If the pair is XY, the person is genetically male. If there are more than 2 chromosomes in the 23rd pair space, then things get complex. However, the number of people with more than 2 chromosomes in the 23rd pair space is undoubtedly not as high as the claimants to "non-binary" status would indicate. If anyone out there has any studies that indicate otherwise, please, by all means post them and I'll retract the above statement.

Up until Political Correctness turned everyone's brain to mush and made the phrase "free speech" a meaningless one, absent a DNA test, anyone with a penis was considered male, and anyone with a vagina was considered female. "Ambiguous" genitalia is, of course, a factor in this discussion, but I really doubt that all "non-binary people" out there have ambiguous genitalia. Again, if there is any study out there...........

Anyway, maybe in another few decades, things will settle out and there will be universally accepted terms, etc. but for now, with everything up in the air, I don't think we should lock Esperanto in a Fundamento prison

Tempodivalse (User's profile) June 9, 2015, 4:09:50 AM

Up until Political Correctness turned everyone's brain to mush and made the phrase "free speech" a meaningless one, absent a DNA test, anyone with a penis was considered male, and anyone with a vagina was considered female.
but for now, with everything up in the air, I don't think we should lock Esperanto in a Fundamento prison
I was a little confused by this post. It seemed initially you were arguing that non-binary genders are a non-issue we shouldn't care about, but then your last sentence seems to endorse use of ri or similar.

I think it's worth distinguishing between sex (biological) and gender (social). The two usually overlap, but not always. For example, a person may feel that they were born into the wrong body, or otherwise not identify with the social gender roles that their biological sex is expected to play. I don't know much about non-binary genders, but it seems entirely plausible that someone might identify with both genders, or neither gender. Clearly only a small minority of people feel this way, but I think we ought to be sensitive here and not downplay their experiences and feelings.

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