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Duolingo will help with reform!!!!

by 1Guy1, May 31, 2015

Messages: 183

Language: English

Red_Rat_Writer (User's profile) June 10, 2015, 6:26:53 AM

I'm the kind of person who disregards precedent if it perpetuates obsolete practices (one of the reasons why I'm learning Esperanto). So I guess I'll have to create a cultural shift away from gender pronouns to a single neuter pronoun.

@Noddy,
don't tell us what to do, >: p

Fenris_kcf (User's profile) June 10, 2015, 7:50:34 AM

Red_Rat_Writer:
Noddy:I thought this thread was being moved to the Esperanto forum...
@Noddy,
don't tell us what to do, >: p
So you prefer not to use Esperanto and vote for excluding the non-English-speakers from the discussion?

orthohawk (User's profile) June 10, 2015, 1:59:16 PM

Fenris_kcf:
Red_Rat_Writer:
Noddy:I thought this thread was being moved to the Esperanto forum...
@Noddy,
don't tell us what to do, >: p
So you prefer not to use Esperanto and vote for excluding the non-English-speakers from the discussion?
Well, it does seem that most of the noise about gender-neutral pronouns comes from English speakers (or at least started with them/us).

At least, I've not seen it in the Spanish forum (though I may have missed the thread)

Tempodivalse (User's profile) June 10, 2015, 2:33:14 PM

orthohawk:Well, it does seem that most of the noise about gender-neutral pronouns comes from English speakers (or at least started with them/us).

At least, I've not seen it in the Spanish forum (though I may have missed the thread)
This seems quite true. Perhaps there is simply more sensitivity in English-speaking countries towards the issue, or perhaps the non-Anglophones are happier to deal with non-binary situations on a case-by-case basis rather than try to develop a set of formal rules. I've not seen anything approaching this level of discussion on the issue on the Russian or Italian forums.

Red_Rat_Writer:I'm the kind of person who disregards precedent if it perpetuates obsolete practices (one of the reasons why I'm learning Esperanto). So I guess I'll have to create a cultural shift away from gender pronouns to a single neuter pronoun.
I just hope you're aware that's a very difficult task (repeating my mantra now...) Language is a living, organic entity, it really has a will of its own, usually outside the influence of one or even a group of people. If the pronouns are going to change, it will be when a critical mass of users spontaneously starts using them. This is how new forms are introduced and old ones become dated or obsolete. In the case of pronouns it will probably involve a paradigm social shift.

Christa627 (User's profile) June 10, 2015, 10:48:50 PM

Russian, Spanish, and Italian speakers are used to having a gender for everything, even inanimate objects, whereas English speakers aren't. Maybe that has something to do with it. Not saying for sure it does, but it might...

Tangi (User's profile) June 11, 2015, 12:11:43 PM

I just do not understand why do we need separate words to refer men and women. Why not follow the majority of humankind that doesn't use these classes? Because some Esperantists consider those languages 'primitive' or 'barbaric'?

orthohawk (User's profile) June 11, 2015, 1:54:33 PM

Tangi:I just do not understand why do we need separate words to refer men and women. Why not follow the majority of humankind that doesn't use these classes? Because some Esperantists consider those languages 'primitive' or 'barbaric'?
Majority of humankind doesn't have separate words for mother and father? give me one language that does that.

carmen9295 (User's profile) June 11, 2015, 2:15:45 PM

As a non-binary individual I see the inherent value in gendered pronouns. People use them to describe themselves and that is incredibly important, taking that away will hurt more people than it will help. I speak Esperanto, and while it's a valid point that the male word must be changed to turn it female, I'm not concerned with adjusting the language to fit my needs at a non-binary. I use the pronoun ili just as I use they in English.

One reason why I am not going to try and change the language has already been stated. This language is living and breathing, if you want it to change you must begin using the language in the way that you want it to be. Questions will be asked and you answer them and it may catch on. It may not. I don't have a problem with the language as is, so I will be using the language as most commonly spoken.

Another reason is that making separate words for mother and father will make Esperanto just that more difficult. There are words like bull/cow chicken/hen and girl/boy that are the same root word with the -in suffix added. The whole point of the language is to be easy to learn and unite the world under one language. Making the language harder for political reasons(which also defeats the neutrality of Esperanto) will diminish the core intention of the Esperanto movement.

Tempodivalse (User's profile) June 11, 2015, 2:44:55 PM

Tangi:I just do not understand why do we need separate words to refer men and women. Why not follow the majority of humankind that doesn't use these classes? Because some Esperantists consider those languages 'primitive' or 'barbaric'?
Which kinds of languages are you referring to? Almost all major world languages make some kind of distinction between male and female animate terms (mother/father, brother/sister). Some don't have a gendered pronoun (Persian, Chinese, Malay/Indonesian) - is this what you were thinking of?

Tangi (User's profile) June 12, 2015, 9:44:51 AM

Tempodivalse:is this what you were thinking of?
My language does not distinguish men, women, and objects in the 3rd person references. It is OK. I'm not ashamed of this. There is no need to be ashamed that your grammar is somewhat not European.

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