dnaleor:Let's just stop this useless discussion. Everyone made his point.

+1 (and it would be very sad if lernu would lose another member because og unnecessary flaming)

Tempodivalse:Think of how callous and arrogant it would be to (say) barge into a French-learning forum and propose substantial changes to the French language.

It is nothing like that. You are not a native speaker of Esperanto, like the rest of us, so don't try to get more authority over it than you deserve. It's not the Animal Farm.

Tangi:

Tempodivalse:Think of how callous and arrogant it would be to (say) barge into a French-learning forum and propose substantial changes to the French language.

It is nothing like that. You are not a native speaker of Esperanto, like the rest of us, so don't try to get more authority over it than you deserve. It's not the Animal Farm.

Actually it is like that. and with Esperanto the status of "native speaker" doesn't carry nearly the same weight as "longtime speaker". Plus there's Zamenhof and the Fundamento.

People see the word "constructed" and sometimes they are inclined to think "fun toy!" rather than "living language!" Don't get me wrong - you can have an amazing fun time speaking Esperanto. You can say things in so many different and interesting ways! But you are unlikely to guess those interesting ways on your own, by making modifications to the grammar. You will learn them with time as you immerse yourself in the literature.

It's about treating the language with the same respect as you treat any other language. Just because Esperanto is newer doesn't mean that the mechanisms for change are any different than they are for a language like French. If you treat Esperanto as different than French (i.e. "it is a constructed language therefore I can modify it to meet my needs" or "it is a constructed language therefore anyone can propose reforms, including me" ), then it's seen as pretty disrespectful and offensive by longtime Esperanto speakers. To us, Esperanto is a normal living language and not a toy. People get married, have children, have arguments, get divorced in this language. People speak this language in their normal lives, it isn't just a fun code like pig latin. It is more than a hundred years past the stage where it was a project being tweaked and improved; at this point, it should be treated with just as much respect as any other language. If you said "I'm going to learn French, and since it's a language and evolves based on its speakers, I'm going to make the verbs all regular and eliminate gender, because those things are needlessly complicated" - you are a free person, you can do that. But what you're speaking isn't French, it's a new language based on French, and you shouldn't be shocked when French speakers tell you that this simply isn't French, and you shouldn't be surprised if your new, improved "French" is shot down on the French language forums.

Languages, including French and Esperanto, evolve slowly with use, and the evolution happens when fluent speakers slowly start to incorporate changes and other fluent speakers pick up on those changes.

When we think about changes to the language, therefore, there's a pretty easy litmus test you can do in your head to see if it would be well-received. "Would this be taken well if I went to a French learning forum and suggested this? Would the answer to this question change at all if I first learned fluent French? and would this answer change at all if I went into the forum and suggested this in fluent French rather than in English?".

Basically, if you think it would be inappropriate for a speaker of beginner or intermediate French to go to a French forum and suggest to a bunch of fluent and native French speakers, in English, making 'improvements' to the French language -- then I humbly suggest that it would be equally inappropriate to come to an Esperanto forum and make those suggestions.

Guys, as the op has stated multiple times (s)he got the point already. Shouldn't an administrator just lock this thread? I don't think anything positive and/or productive will come out of it.

dnaleor:
Let's just stop this useless discussion. Everyone made his point. (i'm starting to become annoyed by the attacks)

Now now, the responses were not unpredictable and you acknowledged yourself in the opening post that it would probably be seen as a beginner proposing reforms. You reap what you sow right?

I admit that I've also been a prime example of the same tendency. When I joined this forum in 2011 I was not making enough effort to learn Esperanto and doing precisely what is in Erinja's last post above: trying to make things suit my lack of effort. There are things that still annoy me, but it's tough luck. Things in English and Dutch and German annoy me too, but there's nothing to be done from my position.

No point getting annoyed. It's only right posts like this are shot down or people read them and feel encouraged to write similar ones (over and over and over again).

The primary objective of my post wasn't changing esperanto. I also state in my first post that I was curious... Did someone else proposed it already? is it already used? Or was it rejected. I got my answer in this topic (it is rarely used, but it is accepted as "official esperanto" )

I'll just quote myself to finish this discussion.

I shouldn't have used the word "proposal" (Notice that I used quotation marks in my first post) .
I didn't mean to offend you guys. But clearly I did.
I wasn't planning on "forcing" anything (I repeat, I didn't even vote 'Ni faru tion' ).

I was just wondering, why it wasn't used like this (at least in conversations) because it seems natural to me. I'll just shut up about it now. I found it interesting that it is used before and is documented. That was really the thing that interested me. Adding the poll was maybe over the top

please close this topic

What's wrong with you, people?

Question which touches the boundaries of Esperanto (or goes beyond them) turns into pages and pages of discussions about who thinks Esperanto is what and how it should be and who thinks what about asking these kinds of question or about the original poster.

Appearance of ci or just mentioning it for learning purposes turns into pages and pages of fighting about how one shall or shan't use Esperanto and who thinks what about people who do differently.

Casual usage of accusative applied in a non-standard way turns into pages and pages of calling names, or discussing not opinions presented in that thread but any other absurd ideas, however loosely connected.

I understand that some users may lose their patience by same subjects being brought again and again. And though I don't agree with raŭmist view on Esperanto presented by some users often present in these kinds of discussions, I can totally see why they might be tired of it all. But I'd say it's counter-productive and rude, even, to flood threads with multiple comments practically copied from other earlier similar threads, rather than to come up with a good answer to the question or a reasonable point in a discussion.

Instead, we get “It's a non-starter” (I've seen it elsewhere few times), “Think of how callous and arrogant it would be” (ooh, there was a separate topic for this one), “if your Esperanto isn't good enough to discuss your reform” (and then saying you don't really know OP's knowledge of Esperanto), “Why should I bother to listen to someone who believes they have improved the language” (nobody forces you to answer, especially if you're not really answering the question), “how Esperanto "should" work is up to the speakers of the language. Note: the speakers, NOT the learners” (argumentum ad personam, my favourite), “Honestly? I don't really care if someone proposes a reform to” (and yet, you bothered to flood us with your generic comments).

dnaleor:Thank you mbalicki for actually answering my question where I was interested in. I didn't knew it was used sometimes (and I bet not many people knew). It was even mentioned in PMEG. Interesting find!

And I thank you, dnaleor, for asking this interesting question. I've sure learned a lot while investigating the subject! Stay curious!

erinja:A good rule of thumb is that is your Esperanto isn't good enough to discuss your reform in Esperanto, then you probably shouldn't be discussing your reform yet. Being able to discuss your ideas in Esperanto, even faulty Esperanto, is a bare minimum. And while the Esperanto-language forums here can also have lots of nasty things said about people proposing reforms and about their proposals, you are generally better received when you are able to discuss your ideas in Esperanto rather than in another language.

Snobby, demeaning posts like this is, truly, another reason that the Lernu community has done virtually diddly-squat to encourage people to use, resonate with, and collaborate in Esperanto. So what if a komencanto wants to throw an idea out like this? Why can't this community step back and either (1) encourage by saying, OK, neat idea, but it won't garner a lot of support, but at least you're thinking about the language, or (2) just say nothing? One new learner isn't going to create some grand uprising that destroys codified Esperanto rules.

I've been a member of this site for many years, and only RARELY come back and check out the forums to see if the general attitude of the Esperantists here have changed. Every time, nope, and it's also the same people like you, policing and being snarky.

Any komencanto is best served migrating to Duolingo at this point. Almost 50 THOUSAND learners have signed up in ONE MONTH to learn Esperanto, and the forum community is much more supportive of one another. Can the closed-minded Lernu trolls generate that kind of excitement? Absolutely not!

mbalicki:What's wrong with you, people?

Please don't let the general attitude of the majority of Lernu forum members discourage your learning, mbalicki!! Head over to Duolingo--you will find the community much more pleasant. There's nothing wrong with your suggestion... heck, "la" can be shortened to "l'" for casual use, so maybe one day your idea could catch on!