Esperanto has, since its inception, been a language not only of international communication, but of translation. A "Middle Esperanto" concept is, like Arcaicam Esperantom, very useful in certain translation contexts, not to mention certain original works. There are times when a work will quote an older, linguistically quite different work. Quoting Chaucer in Modern English, for example. If I were translating Chaucer's work, I would simply use standard Esperanto, of course...but were I to translate something more recent that contained an excerpt, how would I represent the difference between the older language and the new?

(This is mostly my attempt to bring the side discussion about Esperanto's "niche-Ness" back around to the main topic.)

I don't see that at all. You don't have to use anything other than normal Esperanto to translate anything; whether it's Chaucer or the Tao te Ching. Only the people who go deeper, who get involved in , say, Middle English or the specific language and dialectic of the Tao Te Ching or Chuang Tzu and those people will study those languages. English translations of old works try to make them as accessible to modern audiences as possible, there's no need for Esperanto to do any different.

English actually has genuine older forms (which have been superseded). The wish for Esperanto to have the same is just that, a wish. And I know perfectly well what sort of people are yearning for it.

The wish for Esperanto to have the same is just that, a wish. And I know perfectly well what sort of people are yearning for it.

It doesn't seem inappropriate to imagine what Esperanto might have evolved out of, as long as we are clear that any pre-Zamenhof Esperanto is fake and should be used only for literary/artistic purposes.

FWIW, I still like the idea of using Latino sine flexione or Novial to convey the idea of an "ancient Esperanto". I believe there is one play in which Ido is used to convey the flavour of a regional dialect, so there is a precedent, provided it is done in a tasteful artistic fashion.

For actual translations of old texts, of course normative Esperanto should be used (though you can use dated lexicon, orthography and manner of expression to convey a bit of obsolescence - e.g., "Hhinujo" vs "Chinio", "elrigardi" vs "aspekti" ).

Vestitor:You don't have to use anything other than normal Esperanto to translate anything; whether it's Chaucer or the Tao te Ching.

How about people translating a work of fiction which takes place in the present day, but in which appears a passage from several centuries ago and in which it is important that that passage be presented in an "old fashioned" way? How could they do that using nothing but normal Esperanto?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we (or they or whoever) build a fully fleshed out "praesperanto" and call it the real thing. I think what is being talked about is a way of artistically presenting small passages of written text to give them the flavor of having come from a previous century.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and from an artistic viewpoint I wouldn't even call it a useless endeavor. Sometimes in fiction stylistic contrasts and artistic devices are important.

Vestitor:And I know perfectly well what sort of people are yearning for it.

Me too. Although we may be thinking about different people.

I just can't muster the will to find a problem with fake archaic Esperanto for the purpose of literature.

I don't see anything to get upset about, and I see zero intersection between people interested in fake archaic literature Esperanto, and people actually serious about reform projects. No one is proposing to write a whole book in fake archaic Esperanto.

It's like riding around in a horse and carriage for a movie set in old times, rather than riding in a much more efficient car. It adds to the atmosphere, and I don't see anyone shouting at the screen "But wait, that movie was shot in 2004, why aren't they riding in a car?"

What's most astonishing is how people can read through replies (or purport to), then write their own extrapolated problems and issues that were neither mentioned nor even suggested.

Maybe it's just me who doesn't understand 'Esperanto culture'? You translate a book from Spanish to English and it's just accessing Spanish culture through the medium of English; no frills. You translate it into Esperanto and it has to have a cloud of special culture manufactured around it. Criticise that and you're failing to see the purpose of artistic expression right?

It's really nothing like riding around in a horse & cart for a modern film. That's a representation of something real, if historical. It is purposeful and refers to the content.

One can't force their view on others, only put it forward. So take it or leave it. I'm aware people just do what they want anyway. I'm adamant though that many people within Esperanto are in denial about the effect of cultishness on Esperanto's acceptance in many major spheres.

I'm sorry, Vestitor, I haven't a clue what you're referring to. I was referring to writing a book or original story in Esperanto, which seems to be what the original poster was talking about. That is, if you wanted to show something looking archaic in the context of a story, how you might go about doing that by coming up with a stylized "old Esperanto". I see this as a perfectly valid choice, and a choice that is common in fantasy and science fiction literature. I can think of a number of series off-hand that incorporate an "old" made-up language, the best-known of which, of course, is Tolkien's multiple Elvish languges, including an old form.

Whatever your opinion of Esperanto culture, of "cult-ish" tendencies within the community, that's fine and probably well-justified but I see no link whatsoever between that and the idea of making a fake "old Esperanto" for the purpose of including it in an interesting story

erinja:I'm sorry, Vestitor, I haven't a clue what you're referring to. I was referring to writing a book or original story in Esperanto, which seems to be what the original poster was talking about. That is, if you wanted to show something looking archaic in the context of a story, how you might go about doing that by coming up with a stylized "old Esperanto". I see this as a perfectly valid choice, and a choice that is common in fantasy and science fiction literature. I can think of a number of series off-hand that incorporate an "old" made-up language, the best-known of which, of course, is Tolkien's multiple Elvish languges, including an old form.

Whatever your opinion of Esperanto culture, of "cult-ish" tendencies within the community, that's fine and probably well-justified but I see no link whatsoever between that and the idea of making a fake "old Esperanto" for the purpose of including it in an interesting story

Precisely, a fictional history about an ancient land which in modern times speaks Esperanto but in its past spoke Arcaicam and its evolution into the modern language via a Medieval form which shows gradual changes. For most of this Medieval period, the land is fragmented in many separate kingdoms which each provide their songs and poetry to reflect changes in the language.

I don't know what Vestitor's problem is. He behaves as though any changes (which are strictly for artistic purposes of a fictional land's history/culture) will threaten Esperanto and attract crazy/nerdy people. That is a rather ludicrous idea. If he does not like fiction/artistic license, then he does not have to read it. Simple as that.

Acobjum:
Precisely, a fictional history about an ancient land which in modern times speaks Esperanto but in its past spoke Arcaicam and its evolution into the modern language via a Medieval form which shows gradual changes. For most of this Medieval period, the land is fragmented in many separate kingdoms which each provide their songs and poetry to reflect changes in the language.

I don't know what Vestitor's problem is. He behaves as though any changes (which are strictly for artistic purposes of a fictional land's history/culture) will threaten Esperanto and attract crazy/nerdy people. That is a rather ludicrous idea. If he does not like fiction/artistic license, then he does not have to read it. Simple as that.

Super. Now the synopsis has been submitted, proceed with the story. Maybe the names can be difficult to pronounce too, and there can be a wise elf in a cave. I can't see it appealing to nerdy people at all.

In this radio program, Humphrey Tonkin said some of us are "crazy language nuts". I can't think of a better description of myself! I'm a crazy [language nut], AND a [crazy language] nut! And if other people have a problem with that, I don't care. I just don't.