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do you use " CI " ?

door ravana, 8 augustus 2015

Berichten: 96

Taal: English

nornen (Profiel tonen) 9 augustus 2015 07:04:22

orthohawk:(many languages have a 2ps pronoun but no T-V distinction)
Could you name some examples?

Armand6 (Profiel tonen) 9 augustus 2015 07:36:32

You need it to translate Pushkin's poems, for instance, so you cannot do without it.

orthohawk (Profiel tonen) 9 augustus 2015 14:27:40

nornen:
orthohawk:(many languages have a 2ps pronoun but no T-V distinction)
Could you name some examples?
All the Polynesian languages, modern Irish, Latin and Koine Greek (actually, Greek up until the modern period), I've been told (by people that live there) that the languages of Europe that still have the T-V distinction, it's only really observed by older people in the rural areas.

Even in languages with a T-V type distinction (malay e.g. has many many pronouns, both T and V) there are pronouns that are "polite" but are strictly singular.

erinja (Profiel tonen) 9 augustus 2015 15:52:34

I take offense when referred to as "ci". I recommend not using it except in poetry or perhaps prayer, unless you are comfortable risking offending people or people thinking that you are strange.

orthohawk (Profiel tonen) 9 augustus 2015 16:02:56

erinja:I take offense when referred to as "ci". I recommend not using it except in poetry or perhaps prayer, unless you are comfortable risking offending people or people thinking that you are strange.
Even when thee knows that none is meant?

robbkvasnak (Profiel tonen) 9 augustus 2015 19:18:05

I think that this is another non-issue that is best left to the individual. There are so many things in Esperanto that are free or not iron discipline and I love Esperanto for this. It is THE inter-language, that free and liberated space in which people can try to express themselves according to their own inner understandings or reality and themselves within it.
If Orthohawk addresses me as "ci" it would not at all offend me.
And since he mentioned the Polynesian languages - they have a dual form that has no equivalent in Esperanto. The Polynesian languages even have a separate pronoun to say : we (including the person/people addressed) as a dual and then again as a plural - as well as "we" that does not include the person/people addressed. So for "we" there are four different pronouns. For "you" there are the singular, the dual and the plural. If Esperanto ever makes it into the (beautiful) world of Polynesia, maybe translators will have to seek a truly Esperanto translation for this. But even if they do, and even if some people would start to use these forms in their daily conversation, it would not upset the Esperanto apple cart. Just like some people use "pail" and others "bucket" in English, or "Samstags" and "Sonnabend" in German or "tu" and "voce" in Brazilian Portuguese, understanding seems to take place in a proper manner.
Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill and let's give each other some space of our/their own.

erinja (Profiel tonen) 9 augustus 2015 19:24:18

People can certainly call things by different names. And someone might accidentally, without ill will, call a trans man "she", but once informed that the trans man's preferred pronoun is "he", such a person should start calling him "he", otherwise that person is being gratuitously offensive.

My preferred pronoun is "you" for the second person in English, and "vi" in Esperanto. Anyone who is aware of this preference but disregards it and chooses a different pronoun to refer to me is being willfully offensive.

mbalicki (Profiel tonen) 9 augustus 2015 23:20:57

I don't get comparing the matter of gender identity and hurting one's feelings by accidentally identifying one with a gender, one is struggling not to be counted among, and you just liking to be addressed with plural pronoun and not the singular one.

There's an offence to be taken when somebody's addressing you as a male, while you're a female, (or addressing you as a female, while you're a male) but not when one's using the singular pronoun, which definition precisely matches the circumstances of addressing you (thee). I'd say it's about as “wilfully offensive” as calling one doctor, while one prefers physician, or referring to one as Mr without a dot, while one prefers Mr. with a one.

erinja (Profiel tonen) 9 augustus 2015 23:39:13

Vi is used for singular and plural in standard Esperanto, like "you" in English. Perhaps you were unaware of this.

mbalicki (Profiel tonen) 10 augustus 2015 00:26:39

I was aware of this, thank you very much.

Would my comment make any sense if I weren't?

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