Alkanadi:If you can't beat them then join them. What if Esperanto is most accurate translation for these automated machine translators?

In the end it isn't going to be the quality of the translations that will be the decisive issue, assuming that they will improve to the point of making them useable. It will be the convenience of use of the pocket translators.

Anyway, one possible positive outcome will be the effect on the teaching of foreign languages in the schools. This is already in serious decline, at least in the Anglo-Saxon world.

When useable machine translation is conveniently available, the hostility among parents to devoting hours in the educational curriculum on learning French, Chinese, Spanish (whatever) may grow. On the other hand, the educational value of Esperanto, which can be learnt relatively quickly, may be viewed in a more favourable light.

By educational value here I do not mean the value of Esperanto in facilitating the learning of other languages, but its value in giving perspective, in revealing meaning and ambiguity in the pupil's mother tongue.

With decline in the popularity of teaching of foreign languages, the propaedeutic case for Esperanto may well prove to be just another failed argument of the Raŭmisma position.

erinja:What if everyone just focused on using Esperanto in the way they enjoy, and promoting Esperanto (or not) in their preferred way, without casting judgement on the differing decisions of others?

Very true. Everything is life is a balance.

If we invite people to an empty room then they will get bored and probably leave.

If we fill a room with exciting things but nobody knows about it then there will be few people in the room.

Nobody could reasonably be against the use of Esperanto for cultural purposes.

But the idea of developing a developing a culture specific to Esperanto seems to me to be counter productive.

Although there is a history of national languages, which carry a certain culture, being used as international languages, there is also naturally some resistance to the idea of the imposition of a foreign culture.

Being culturally neutral is surely a plus for Esperanto.

sudanglo:Nobody could reasonably be against the use of Esperanto for cultural purposes.

But the idea of developing a developing a culture specific to Esperanto seems to me to be counter productive.

Although there is a history of national languages, which carry a certain culture, being used as international languages, there is also naturally some resistance to the idea of the imposition of a foreign culture.

Being culturally neutral is surely a plus for Esperanto.

Esperanto already developed a culture. It developed one a long time ago. Trying to stand against that is like standing on the beach yelling at the waves. It's a pointless endeavor.

Culture: the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

Esperantujo is an international culture, it's a giant melting pot of other cultures. If you don't believe that look at the dates we all commonly celebrate (Esperanto Day for instance), the events we all want to attend even if we can't IJK, UK, etc. The large range of both translated and original music and literature. The films both old, bad, and even now new. The language specific wording we use such as "krokodili, kabei, etc" and proverbs / turns of phrases, "jam temp' está". The prosecutions and trials the movement has suffered through such as Hitler and Stalin. I find it laughable when people want to deny the culture. It's like denying the air you breath. Esperanto culture surrounds us. It's an international culture evolved over a 120+ years of use. If you stay with a native Esperanto family of several generations like I have, you'll see just how deep the culture goes.

Isn't it a rather thin 'culture' cobbled together out of national customs from elsewhere and entirely based upon the language? Language is culture, but culture isn't just language.

It looks very much like Esperanto-speaking humanism, with a few shared memes and habits garnered over 100 years. Not how I would venture to describe any culture of the world without grossly misrepresenting it.

I suspect that an internationalist culture - a fine goal in many respects - would always be a pale shadow of localised cultures. The simple fact of physical geography means only certain groups can live and think together to the depth required to create a deep-rooted social culture.

You implied it before earlier in this thread, it's merely doing stuff together as a loose language community, in the face of minority acceptance. There's some semblance of culture, but let's not get carried away with descriptions.

Having trouble understanding why some people find it so objectionable that others feel that Esperanto culture (a) exists, and (b) is important, and (c) feel this way strongly enough to bother posting long posts in online forums to explain to people interested in this topic that their interest is a silly waste of time.

Seems like a strange case of "Someone on the internet said something wrong and I need to correct them!!!!"

Why not just ignore the whole topic if "Esperanto culture" isn't your thing? It gets to look like some kind of strange sour grapes, when you just can't abide by someone being into a topic that isn't your thing, why this intense need to explain to people how wrong they are?

My post was one sentence less than the previous post, so not all that long. If it's of no importance, why make comment upon it with your own corrective intent?

Is it now no longer legitimate to have a view other than a Raŭmist one? It's like dismissing it is tantamount to a human rights abuse!

You seem to think I care whether someone has a Raumist or finvenkist viewpoint.

My actual point is that I could not care less. If someone wants to post about the best ways to encourage everyone to learn Esperanto so that everyone can speak it together, I think it's a waste of time to write a long post explaining to them why this will never happen because the only thing that matters is Esperanto culture, because the "fina venko" will never happen and therefore that they are wasting their time on a pipe dream, and writing a long post explaining all of the 100 reasons why this person is wrong and why they are wasting their time on their worthless wrong ideas. Might make me look a bit unnecessarily bitter, trampling all over someone like that because I have a different idea of what the language is good for.

Similarly, when someone posts all about how you can help develop Esperanto culture and community because it's worthwhile for it's own sake, and because the fina venko will likely never happen, I don't see a point in explaining the 100 reasons why that person is wrong and why they should not waste time on their worthless wrong ideas.

Most Esperantists, including myself, find themselves somewhere on the middle of the raumist/finvenkist spectrum, because it is a spectrum.

But I think it's a bit rich of an Esperantist to write long descriptions about why other Esperantists are somehow "doing Esperanto wrong", considering that non-Esperantists could write a very similar post about any Esperantist (regardless of that Esperantist's "political affiliation" ). Why don't you go learn a real language??, such a person might ask.

It has come to the point when someone mentions something about Esperanto culture, I'm almost waiting for the post on "yeah but you Raumists, you have such wrong and worthless ideas like XYZ", some long post saying how wrong someone is, and I am just so freaking sick of reading it, it is counterproductive and frankly it is quite boring to read. It's equally aggravating (and boring!) when it's someone trashing finvenkist ideas but frankly I see much less of that on this forum, particularly called out by name. It's almost like finvenkists feel like raumists present some kind of a threat and they feel some kind of big need to be so vocal and detailed in refuting their views, otherwise others might follow those ideas.

We could do with a lot more "live and let live" here, no one is forcing anyone to go passing out "Esperanto - the international language for everyone" brochures in a public square, nor is anyone forcing anyone to start writing poems reflecting Esperanto's unique community culture [this is a tongue in cheek example - I am not trying to present it as a given that such a thing exists].

Very long post. I did read it though.

erinja:It has come to the point when someone mentions something about Esperanto culture, I'm almost waiting for the post on "yeah but you Raumists, you have such wrong and worthless ideas like XYZ", some long post saying how wrong someone is, and I am just so freaking sick of reading it, it is counterproductive and frankly it is quite boring to read. It's equally aggravating (and boring!) when it's someone trashing finvenkist ideas but frankly I see much less of that on this forum, particularly called out by name. It's almost like finvenkists feel like raumists present some kind of a threat and they feel some kind of big need to be so vocal and detailed in refuting their views, otherwise others might follow those ideas.

We could do with a lot more "live and let live" here, no one is forcing anyone to go passing out "Esperanto - the international language for everyone" brochures in a public square, nor is anyone forcing anyone to start writing poems reflecting Esperanto's unique community culture [this is a tongue in cheek example - I am not trying to present it as a given that such a thing exists].

Reminds me of that wearisome, seemingly endless, multi-thread dispute on who is ruining Esperanto's public image! My opinion here is the same: Esperantists have different interests, different viewpoints, and different goals; and the community's all the richer for it!