Vestitor:Well, that's not the entire picture concerning the Netherlands. Your post implies that it's chiefly foreign people who make no effort, but the truth is that conversing with locals is very difficult for even someone staying longer than a holiday.

I'm not talking about the Netherlands, but yeah, here, you can go to almost any restaurant in any tourist city (Amsterdam, Amsterdam and Amsterdam for instance (why would people come here?) if you know either Dutch or English. Also in Venice, either English or Italian. Spanish beaches and hotels and restaurants nearby; either Spanish or English. Most holiday parks in Germany: German or English. You get what I'm trying to convey. And of course, their English is broken af, but it works. This then goes on to discourage English speakers to learn something else; English is fine.

Vestitor:Who will deny that hordes are clamouring to learn English out of fear of being priced out of the future global job market; or fear of being culturally handicapped? All the while they remain constantly one step behind native English speakers.

How do you mean exactly with being several steps behind?

Vestitor:I see only one long-shot remedy and it is to introduce Esperanto in primary schools, There is now a mountain of evidence that it has multiple benefits; in itself and for future language acquisition. That alone is a reason for adopting it in primary schooling, rather then wading through irregular languages from scratch during the teenage years.
After having learned Esperanto as the first 'foreign language' it seems to me natural that it would then play a significant role as an auxiliary language, rather then sitting on the fringes in 'Esperantujo' as it does now.

Well schools in the Netherlands (for instance) usually don't care. Tou're taught all these different languages and you just have to learn them to a point. They want you to be able to have something to build from when you enter the global market, that when you land in Germany for a job, you'll at least have B1 or higher in all aspects of the language (assuming you're from havo or higher). Fluency can wait.

Vestitor:This may inspire no hope in some long-term Esperantists who have perhaps long experience of Esperanto as a subculture language and a jaded view of it ever being a true IAL. It is, however, one of the only realistic measures for dislodging the imbalance of English dominance and moving Esperanto forward to what it is was designed to do, rather than it being a subculture.

This begs the question of what we consider to be part of Esperantujo, or more importantly what we want it to be. Do we want there to be 10 million Esperantanoj or 7 billion? I personally like the idea of an exclusive "nice people only" club, where the selection is done by the learners themselves, as Evildea stated it.

EratoNysiad:I'm not talking about the Netherlands, but yeah, here, you can go to almost any restaurant in any tourist city (Amsterdam, Amsterdam and Amsterdam for instance (why would people come here?) if you know either Dutch or English. ..You get what I'm trying to convey. And of course, their English is broken af, but it works. This then goes on to discourage English speakers to learn something else; English is fine.

I am talking about the Netherlands because it's a good example of how and why English is over-promoted, sometimes at the cost of Dutch which is idiotic.

EratoNysiad:How do you mean exactly with being several steps behind?

Behind in understanding nuances, speed of speech, writing/reading skills. Like my neighbour who wrote his PhD thesis in English. His professor thinks it's super, but when I read it through the language is not even to the standard of a UK sixth-form student.
Any person using a language outside of countries where it is the full medium of communication is using it on a different level. For me it's okay, I was born in England and if European people are happy with native English-speakers having the whip-hand over world communication needs I won't suffer I will benefit greatly. However I try to think about people not within the metropolitan sphere.

EratoNysiad:Well schools in the Netherlands (for instance) usually don't care. Tou're taught all these different languages and you just have to learn them to a point. They want you to be able to have something to build from when you enter the global market, that when you land in Germany for a job, you'll at least have B1 or higher in all aspects of the language (assuming you're from havo or higher). Fluency can wait.

Not caring is a problem throughout modern Dutch culture and accounts for much, but with regard to languages the popular myth is that there is a lot of multilingualism, but there isn't. The number of people who can speak German here has plummeted (it is now the least-chosen of the main foreign languages). It's quite pathetic considering the relationship between German/Dutch. French-speakers are even thinner on the ground. Clearly only one language is being propagated and that is English to the detriment of all others. It's an exercise in shooting oneself in the foot though because it produces only second-rate competence.

EratoNysiad:...or more importantly what we want it to be. Do we want there to be 10 million Esperantanoj or 7 billion? I personally like the idea of an exclusive "nice people only" club, where the selection is done by the learners themselves, as Evildea stated it.

That exclusive-club mentality is what helps keep Esperanto like it is. People fooling about making comedy YouTube videos for the converted and translating cartloads of empty-headed sci-fi novelettes. In that world it might as well be Klingon.

Vestitor: However I try to think about people not within the metropolitan sphere.

About you being English, I has already found that you use quite a lot of unusual words for someone who speaks English as a second language. Now I know why.
Well, we need a language for international communication, and we happen to have chosen English, because one thing came to another, and this is what we were then left with. Trust me, we could've chosen Spanish, French or German, but if we did, how would that have changed things? Everyone would be speaking crappy Spanish, French or German. And if Esperanto was chosen, it too would be spoken poorly.
I will study mechatronics in English. And I might not want to make intelligent light bulbs at Philips in Eindhoven, but maybe I want to make maglevs in Hamburg, or androids in Tokyo. I will study in English, so I can follow a proper course in Technical Japanese or Technical German, rather than use some half-assed Dutch-Japanese or Dutch-German word list.
And do you know in which country I'm using English? The Internet. And my English isn't too bad either, native speakers usually consider me an American, based on my speech. I just might use strange constructions and I might tend to avoid using difficult words. But, as for the latter, the same is true for my Dutch, so I wouldn't blame my non-nativeness.
Also, what's so different between people inside and outside of the metropolitan sphere? (I'm from a rural town.)

Vestitor:

But how do you want to improve it? The situation as I see it: we have all these highs-school students who don't give a thing about learning a foreign language, because they'll be working in the Netherlands and they won't need it that much anyway.
I know of this and I think it's sad, as I do whatever I can to improve on my English, German, Esperanto and Japanese. As for the latter, I don't halfheartedly follow some course, halfheartedly read some books I hardly understand. No, I spend lots and lots of hours into learning how the grammar works, what the words mean, and when I get told that I'm using the wrong words for something or a strange construction, I will try to improve on that and use the right words the next time. The same could not be said for most Dutch students.

Vestitor:

Yes, but consider the following; if everyone spoke Esperanto, would it still be special? Would people do stuff for Zamenhoff day, attend Esperanto conventions, etc? No, it'll be like having a national water-containing stuff drinking day and a convention for using your seatbelt. Sure, give me 10 million or perhaps even 100 million speakers. But keep it something that is special.
Also, what's wrong with comedy YT videos for the converted? Is the Eo-movement all about achieving la Fina Venko?

Erato, your use of English is very good - but I can tell just by reading it, that you are not a native speaker. You often use the wrong preposition with verbs. I rarely meet anybody who can use English as a native speaker who has acquired it as a second language after puberty. While that may not make any difference to other non-native speakers, native speakers subconsciouly deem it uneducated and therefore are less like to be persuaded by what is written or spoken. In fact, Citibank hired me and put me through banking school just because I also speak native quality German. The bankers know that only a native speaker can really persuade you to put your money where your mouth his - hehehe.
As for Esperanto becoming too popular, I unfortunately doubt that this will happen in my lifetime. In my country, the USA, there are very few bilinguals except for those whose second language is American English. Native English speakers here (and I have the same impression when it comes to the Brits) are not very interested in acquiring a second language. I teach foreign language and I see that they usually quit after the first five lessons.
I loath going to Northern Europe any more because people there think that they speak English and I am tempted to correct them all the time. Furthermore they sound absolutely insulting at times because they don't observe the basic rules of English pragmatics. But then, the Brits are known here in the US to be very arrogant - or they are perceived as such - because they follow other rules of pragmatics than we do.

Actually, I am planning on offering a course locally called: Learn to be a polyglott. I will use Esperanto as the model - which I did when I was teaching how to teach foreign language at the university.

EratoNysiad:Yes, but consider the following; if everyone spoke Esperanto, would it still be special? Would people do stuff for Zamenhoff day, attend Esperanto conventions, etc? No, it'll be like having a national water-containing stuff drinking day and a convention for using your seatbelt. Sure, give me 10 million or perhaps even 100 million speakers. But keep it something that is special.
Also, what's wrong with comedy YT videos for the converted? Is the Eo-movement all about achieving la Fina Venko?

This is the problem. Esperanto is a means of communication, not a religion. It is as special as it is made in usage: rousing speeches, literature, just like any other language. Is French any less special by having millions of speakers?

Recognising Zamenhof as author doesn't have to disappear in the face of more speakers/users. In fact quite the reverse.

Yes, the Eo movement should be about looking to the future of it as a major IAL; Espero indeed, rather than malespero. Of course you don't sit festering waiting for that happen, it gets used and maintained, but that's surely a place-holder.

robbkvasnak:Erato, your use of English is very good - but I can tell just by reading it, that you are not a native speaker. You often use the wrong preposition with verbs. I rarely meet anybody who can use English as a native speaker who has acquired it as a second language after puberty. While that may not make any difference to other non-native speakers, native speakers subconsciouly deem it uneducated and therefore are less like to be persuaded by what is written or spoken. In fact, Citibank hired me and put me through banking school just because I also speak native quality German. The bankers know that only a native speaker can really persuade you to put your money where your mouth his - hehehe.

I wonder, how did you get native quality German? I understand that someone who speaks perfectly is deemed more cultured than others. This follows from the fact that this would mean that this person would be smarter than others. I am aware that my English isn't perfect, and it probably never will, but, as I stated earlier, am very willing to learn and to become as good as I can be. And in the context of the conversation, I want more people to be like that: curious and willing to improve.

robbkvasnak:As for Esperanto becoming too popular, I unfortunately doubt that this will happen in my lifetime. In my country, the USA, there are very few bilinguals except for those whose second language is American English. Native English speakers here (and I have the same impression when it comes to the Brits) are not very interested in acquiring a second language. I teach foreign language and I see that they usually quit after the first five lessons.
I loath going to Northern Europe any more because people there think that they speak English and I am tempted to correct them all the time. Furthermore they sound absolutely insulting at times because they don't observe the basic rules of English pragmatics. But then, the Brits are known here in the US to be very arrogant - or they are perceived as such - because they follow other rules of pragmatics than we do.

Well, that's the thing with pragmatics; in school they teach you the vocabulary and the grammar, a bit of the pronunciation and how to use that to produce or comprehend English. Pragmatics isn't handled in class at all. For instance, the German words "der Termin" and "die Verabredung" are both treated like being synonyms in the textbooks, whilst, in fact, "der Termin" is supposedly reserved for business and "die Verabredung" is supposedly reserved for more personal affairs. And I know this because my German teacher happens to be nitpicky about everything. And I love that of her. Otherwise I wouldn't have known at all.
It is better for a student if the language teacher is nitpicky, than if he half-heartedly accepted anything.
But then again; where would one learn about the pragmatics? Studying at an university? Hah. Not today :\

EratoNysiad:I understand that someone who speaks perfectly is deemed more cultured than others. This follows from the fact that this would mean that this person would be smarter than others.

But it doesn't follow.

While adult language acquisition isn't completely understood, we do know that it is not correlated with intelligence.

And of course, this entire idea that fluency is a metric of culture and intelligence is exactly why a non-native speaker starts "several steps behind" under English language hegemony.

I certainly agree that it's something that you'd have a hard time with in the USA. I'm not so sure about Europe though, both because of the distance/population density and the greater awareness of Esperanto.

As for the cost, I don't think that's a dealbreaker. Check out this article, and I think you will agree Esperanto is not too far-out compared to these camps:
http://www.businessinsider.com/unusual-summer-camp...

erinja:
In a place like the US, I think it's effectively impossible. It would have to be fiendishly expensive because the group would be so small, and the distances are just too far for people to travel. Most parents don't see the value of Esperanto and most kids don't hear about it till they're a little older, in order to pressure their parents.

There are a number of events in Europe aimed at families but that's more for families who speak Esperanto in the home, looking to meet up with other families. It's not a language course. I don't think even Europe has the density of speakers to have a viable regional Esperanto summer course for children only.

Money talks more. If there is an Esperanto company to hire employees who must be able to speak and write Esperanto, USA citizens would learn Esperanto. Simple.

If Esperanto speakers can support the Esperanto business like visit the Cambodia via the Cambodia Esperanto Tourism, within 5 years, Esperanto would be a vital language in Cambodia and this would also alert the Asean region about Esperanto.

But most Esperanto speakers do not realise that. Hotels with name in Esperanto hire no one who speak Esperanto, of course no Esperanto speakers support them to stay in their hotels.

It is easier to realise the dream of finvenko in smaller region like ASEAN.