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nun vs cxi tiam/tiam cxi

от Ibraesil, 18 март 2016

Съобщения: 9

Език: English

Ibraesil (Покажи профила) 18 март 2016, 06:46:09

It seems like the accepted translation for "now" is "nun", rather than what seems more consistent to me, "cxi tiam" or "tiam cxi"

Is there some subtlety to the meaning of "cxi" that I'm missing that makes "cxi tiam" not work?

Or is "tiam cxi" valid, but there's a subtle difference between it an "nun"?

Or something else?

Fenris_kcf (Покажи профила) 18 март 2016, 07:20:13

"cxi tiam" or "tiam cxi" are valid and i use them from time to time. It's just that "nun" is more often used.

Actually it's just like in the Germanic and many other indo-germanic languages. Many correlatives are more or less systematic like "where/there/here", "which/that/this", but for some there are special words like "when/then/now".

bryku (Покажи профила) 18 март 2016, 07:59:41

Ibraesil:It seems like the accepted translation for "now" is "nun", rather than what seems more consistent to me, "cxi tiam" or "tiam cxi"

Is there some subtlety to the meaning of "cxi" that I'm missing that makes "cxi tiam" not work?

Or is "tiam cxi" valid, but there's a subtle difference between it an "nun"?

Or something else?
"Tiam cxi" and "cxi tiam" are seldom used. Insted of them "nun = now" is used. Cxi means proximity, so tiam cxi I could understand as "close to then" which is somewhat different to "now".

Ibraesil (Покажи профила) 18 март 2016, 08:31:27

bryku:Cxi means proximity, so tiam cxi I could understand as "close to then" which is somewhat different to "now".
But isn't saying "tiam cxi" is like "close to then" like saying "tie cxi" is like "close to there" or "tio cxi" is like "(something which is) close to that"?

Or am I misunderstanding?

bryku (Покажи профила) 18 март 2016, 13:21:08

Ibraesil:
bryku:Cxi means proximity, so tiam cxi I could understand as "close to then" which is somewhat different to "now".
But isn't saying "tiam cxi" is like "close to then" like saying "tie cxi" is like "close to there" or "tio cxi" is like "(something which is) close to that"?

Or am I misunderstanding?
By analogy:
Tie ĉi = closer to speaking person or to the place this person is talking about.
Tiam ĉi = closer to speaking person in time? I don't think so. I can't even well imagine that, because time is not the same as space, though Einstein spoke of spacetime. Then may be you're right after all.

Try to devine the meanings of such as these:

"tial ĉi"
"tiel ĉi"
"tiom ĉi"

Amike: Grzesiek

erinja (Покажи профила) 18 март 2016, 19:03:30

Some use "nun" for "now" and "cxi tiam" or "tiam cxi" for "this time". Subtle difference.

Like, in contrasting between that time (then, tiam) and this time.

Ibraesil (Покажи профила) 19 март 2016, 03:23:33

bryku:Try to devine the meanings of such as these:

"tial ĉi"
"tiel ĉi"
"tiom ĉi"
I would translate those as "for this reason" *unveils what you've secretly been working towards, or something*; "this way" or "like so" (probably with a demonstration or something); and "this much". But then again, I'd also translate "tiam ĉi" as "now", so clearly my translations aren't the most accurate lango.gif

erinja:Some use "nun" for "now" and "cxi tiam" or "tiam cxi" for "this time". Subtle difference.
By "this time" do you mean, like "on this occasion"? I thought that was "cxi-foje". Do you mean some people use "cxi tiam" when others would use "cxi-foje" or do you mean some thing slightly different by "this time"?

eshapard (Покажи профила) 19 март 2016, 06:53:03

Now (nun) and at-this-time (tiam cxi) mean the same thing. As in other languages, there are often multiple ways to express the same idea in Esperanto.

erinja (Покажи профила) 20 март 2016, 00:59:38

Ibraesil:By "this time" do you mean, like "on this occasion"? I thought that was "cxi-foje". Do you mean some people use "cxi tiam" when others would use "cxi-foje" or do you mean some thing slightly different by "this time"?
It's literally "at this time", like time on a clock or time in a sequence of time. Ĉi-foje would be time as in one time, two times, three times (more like "occasion" than a strict meaning of time).

Rather like a hotel receptionist telling you "We have no free rooms at this time", when you could have been told "We have no rooms now". Implication is that we might have some later.

But there's never a real reason why you have to use "ĉi tiam" instead of "nun", you could happily use "nun" in every occasion, you never strictly need this exact nuance.

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